Zero fret

[Peter Wilcox]

If you haven't already, you can go here to get directions for uploading pics. http://www.mimf.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1656

If you use Windows, the Irfanview program works well for resizing.

[Burdock Caudwell]

Hello Peter,
Thank you. I am currently working with the camera to solve the problem. It is a Polaroid 733. The user guide weighs more than the camera. It is very presumptuous in their writing of things in the instructions as if all of the terms and procedures are common knowledge.
I am trying to work through it only enough to size the photos. It took forever to find the up close setting, as there is a menu that only shows icons. At that point you have to click on and go through another bunch of procedures. The difficulty is the fault of the manufacturer for trying to make one product do to many things and not all of them well.
I will get through it. I just don't want to sped an excessive amount of time to learn how to operate a particular type of camera, just to take and send pictures. I just want to glean what is necessary.

[Peter Wilcox]

I am of the old school knob-twiddling generation, and menu driven electronica drives me nuts too. However, you should be able to connect the camera to your computer via the USB cable to easily import the pictures, then open them in a program like irfanview to resize them, which is pretty straightforward, without having to do anything more with the camera.

Best of luck. I've quite a bit of graphics experience and would be glad to help with any questions.

[John Dallas]

A zero fret is normally not a part you can add to an existing guitar. It must be considered during the design phase and the neck must be constructed such to allow for it.

I had one problem for which a retro-fitted zero fret was the only solution.

It was an ancient, no-name, open-back 5-string banjo that my father had picked up somewhere. And it was untuneable! The fretted-string-to-open string method left the open strings distinctly off, and tuning by ear left the chords sour. With a sort of approximate tuning, I could get along with the 3-chord trick in the open position, but musical listeners always noticed I was slightly out of tune.
The rosewood nut was slotted deeply enough not to be the problem.

After many calculations and considerations, and prompted by gut feeling, I decided to use a bit of fretwire left over from another project as a zero fret.
First, I wedged some normal wire under the strings and empirically found a position that solved the problem, and then inserted the fret there. The crown of the fretwire is 2 mm from the face of the nut, and the banjo now has clean intonation all the way up the neck!

I guess what I'm saying is, a retrofitted zero fret can be a remedy for a maker's error. But only if the error is setting the 1st fret too far from the nut! So I would agree with those who say, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"

Cheers,
John

[John LaTorre]

If you're interested in retrofitting a guitar to a zero fret, there's a company that makes that easier:

http://www.zeroglide.com/details.asp

I haven't tried their product, but it seems sound in theory, and will save you a lot of experimentation, tool buying, etc.

[Burdock Caudwell]

I had one problem for which a retro-fitted zero fret was the only solutio
I guess what I'm saying is, a retrofitted zero fret can be a remedy for a maker's error. But only if the error is setting the 1st fret too far from the nut! So I would agree with those who say, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
Cheers,
John

Hello,
While I generally agree with that premise, I also look for different ways to improve things. It is my opinion that the nut is a problem, there are no concrete solutions to the problems it causes. How many guitars are disposed of simply because the nut is either to high or low ? With a zero fret the string height can for the most part be adjusted at the bridge. I would venture to guess that if I ask all of the people who have replied to this thread, to PM me the complete instructions to make a nut from a blank, the differences would by like comparing night to day.
I can appreciate everyone's opinion either for or against a zero fret. However its potential was never fully explored for the reason I stated before, its association with cheaper guitars.

[Bryan Bear]

As a zero fret user, I disagree with your assessment that the nut is a problem for which there is no concrete solution. The concrete solution is set the nut up properly through whichever process works for you. There are millions of guitars with nuts. Some may need work but would be problem free (as far as the nut is concerned) with a proper set-up. As you say, the zero fret has a bad rep, in large part, due to customer bias born form its use on low end guitars. Assumptions based on ignorance and partial information on the part of the guitar buying public certainly shape the landscape of "tradition." This of course, works against the nut too. The average guitar player doesn't know that when you buy a new guitar, the expectation is that you will have it set up after you get it. People don't expect to have to work on or pay someone to work on a brand new instrument. So now we have hoards of guitars out there with nuts that are not optimal (but could easily be made to be). I had a friend who bought a brand new acoustic he was in love with. I told him to go to this particular music shop and tell the guy he wanted as set-up (this was before I got into the hobby). He was amazed how much more he loved his new guitar after a small additional investment.

The notion of throwing a guitar away because the nut is too high or too low is as silly as scraping a car because it needs new tires. Well, my car may just be worth less than 4 tires but I can't bring myself to replace it.

I totally agree that if everyone here PMed you a nut making protocol, you would have as many different processes as you had PMs. The same would apply if you asked the same question of any part of guitar making. That is only evidence that good results can be obtained in many different ways. Often various techniques are hotly debated on these fora. The reality is that two drastically opposing camps can still get the required results whether one side wants to admit it or not.

I just realized this post may seem to be more contrary than I intend. Please take no offense, I'm just rambling. . .

[Burdock Caudwell]

Hello Bryan,
I agree that a nut can be set up properly. However if you simply take it out of the equation it dramatically simplifies things, as there is no longer the need for adjustment to obtain proper string height as it can all be done at the bridge. The strings are already set at the proper radius for the neck. The only point I am trying to make is it has not been explored to the depth of various types of nut materials and the like.
I am not trying to start a zero fret cult. My first post on this thread was to inquire about zero frets, and others opinions about them. I also didn't completely understand how they worked. I wanted to install one on a guitar. I have since came to the conclusion it is a viable option.
You saw the results your friend had from getting his guitar setup. Had it not been for you he would have never been aware of that option. Now take for instance a teenager buying his first guitar at lets say Guitar Center, I happen to know the setup there is $65.00. That is probably not an option for someone purchasing an on sale $99.00 guitar. He takes it home, after the first few days his fingers are looking like hamburger, into the closet it goes. Had it had a zero fret that may not have happened.
I would also like to say that not everyone who buy's or has a guitar have access the same type of tools or knowledge as a the people who routinely build guitars from scratch. They likely have no idea what is causing the problem, or how to fix it if they did.
I did not take offense with your post. I always appreciate input pro or con as a problem has to be looked at from all sides.

[Burdock Caudwell]

Hello,
Testing to see if photo will upload. Success, this is the guitar I am proposing adding a zero fret to. That was the original mods, it has since been further modded. I will try to upload photos of current additions. OK the top photo has the current modifications as of now. The pickups are the 1959 Melody Maker pickups I wound.

[Mark Swanson]

Bryan is right about the new guitars, and the nut setups they come with. However I wanted to add that many times the new guitars have nuts made out of plastic or some junk material, and to do the new setup right the nut really should be replaced if not made of something decent, bone is the best.

[Burdock Caudwell]

Hello Mark,
Having agreed with that, there is still the question of how many first time guitar owners are aware that the nut is the problem ? All they know is they have a brand new guitar that they cannot play because it is tearing up their fingers. The only solution offered by the big box stores is a setup costing at times almost as much as the price of the budget guitar they just purchased. At that point they may well think, why throw good money after bad.
To your point, now you have to take a brand new guitar and replace the part causing most if not all of the problems, THE NUT !!!

[Bryan Bear]

It is a shame that most don't know about set-us of new instruments. It seams like something that guitar teachers and teach yourself books should cover. I suppose it would 't carry as much weight if the shop who sells it to you (who also sells set-ups) tells you. Ideally a shop would offer the service as part of the purchase price. I suppose that would be a tough prospect when selling the $100 guitar shaped objects people often start out with.

You don't know what you don't know until you know it. . . Started to learn woodworking on my own and was surprised to learn that chisels aren't sharp and planes need set-up when you buy them. The Internet has really helped people get good advice when starting out in new endeavors. Now we don't love in quite so much of a vaccuume.

[Burdock Caudwell]

Hello Byran,
Yes it is a shame that most people do not know more about setups of new instruments. My first guitar shaped object was a $12.00 flat top from S.S.Kesge. Black Diamond 12/52's, 3/8th's relief at the 12th fret. Those were the days. However there were NO after market parts at that time. Any changes of pickups or the like were salvaged from higher priced guitars. The rest was pay your money and take your chances. I have no idea where a nut blank could even have been acquired at that time.
In days gone by if you bought a higher end guitar, for the most part it was ready to play. If by chance it needed adjustment it could probably be done at the point of purchase, as part of the price. You would not have to run immediately out of the store in search of a luthier to do a complete setup on a brand new guitar.
From reading other forums, of the people that are aware of adjustments and modifications, the common practice seems to be a fret level and crowning, new nut, replace tuning pegs, pull out the potentiometer's, capacitors, switches, jack, change out wiring to the cloth covered, and then multiple pickup changes. All to play the guitar with every knob on the guitar and amp dimmed.
My thoughts on that are, if the manufacturers have caught on to this trend, they feel they can just put any of the lowest priced
components, slack off on quality control as the guitar will probably be re-engineered upon purchase any way.

[Mark Swanson]

Much of what you say most folks are doing to their new guitars is not needed. There are a lot of myths out there. Cloth wire makes no difference, most tuners are adequate and tuning problems are usually the fault once again of the nut, (slots too tight) and on a better guitar the electrical components are usually decent. Fretwork can vary, but I would not expect to have to do a level and re-crown on a brand new guitar. But a little nut work? Yes. And again, on a decent guitar I would expect the nut to at least be made out of good material even if it needed a little adjusting.

[Bryan Bear]

I agree with Mark for the most part. Keep in mind that I am not really an electric guy so I'm out of my element there. It seems like the Internet is filled with a lot of helpful info AND a lot of overblown hype. People like to repeat what they hear about what makes a guitar better (this is more what they hear people say rather than what they hear from the guitar). It gets passed around and built up bigger the more times people hear it. Sure there are small advantages, but do they really matter to the regular guy (not elite enough to be making his/her living using these tools [guitars])? It reminds me of the guys in the car circles who inflate their tires with pure nitrogen. Not race are, not their muscle cars. Their daily driver sedans. Do they really feel the difference they claim to?