Neck removal- What am I doing wrong???

[Ryan Mazzocco]

I come to you humbled and exposed and as the inexperienced luthier that I am. While my main focus has been learning to build guitars I have also immersed myself in repair. I've been successful with the procedures that I have done so far, from simple set-up to more complex repairs and complete restorations, building my confidence and making me think I can do anything. But this week I have been brought back down to earth in a hard way.
I have a few guitars that are in pretty bad need of a neck reset. But before cutting into any of them I 'PRACTICED ON SCRAP' first. My first attempt went badly and I know why now. It was an old Bently 12-string neck I had found in a guitar shop that was busted off with only the head block, some kerfing and a the upper bout of the top remaining. Thought it would be a good practice piece. but I found out, after tearing it all to pieces that it was a doweled butt joint, so as far as the neck steaming process goes was a waste of time. But I think learned some things to look for when determining the joint type.
Next was a late 70s Alvarez guitar that I had laying around and was using as a guinea pig already. (you may recall I've posted about it before) I figured the neck removal process should take 30 mins to an hour at the most... I've gone 3 rounds on it, I don't know how many hours, and all I'm getting is frustrated. I don't know if it's the guitar or me.
This guitar is a beater and holds no sentimental or monetary value to me, which is why I was able to mutilate it the way I did in an attempt to figure this out, but I warn you that what you are about to read may induce vomiting and I do apologize.
So, first I broke the finish joints with my exacto knife and released the fingerboard extension.. no problems so far.. removed the 15th fret and drilled... still going well.... got the steam going and inserted the needle.... now here is where things start to go down hill. I let it steam for a while. at this point I'm not really sure how long it needs to steam before it "should" start to break loose, so after a couple minutes I start trying to work it like a loose tooth. It's solid and won't budge. i'm not panicking yet. I let go a while longer... still no movement. Now I'm starting to get concerned that it's gone too long and I'm going to have too much moisture into the guitar and start having problems with other joints and the finish... I don't really know how long is safe to leave the needle in. Now I'm starting to see water seep through the head block and the inside of the guitar is getting wet... eventually I finally get a little bit of wiggle... but I soon find out that it's not a good wiggle. The head block has come loose from the top plate. the binding is coming loose from the top and as I wiggle the neck I can see the sides come loose from the top... but the neck is still firmly attached with absolutely no movement whatsoever. it is at this point that I start to get frustrated and quit.
Round 2... I had assumed that this was a traditional dovetail based on the size of the headblock, but after a good nights sleep I started to consider that I could be dealing with another doweled butt joint or as far fetched as it would seem a spanish heel... or maybe even one of those where they assembled the neck joint first and then put the top on... so after a little bit more steaming, just to see if I could get it loose I decided to cut the fingerboard extension so I could maybe see exactly what I was dealing with. The first thing I noticed was that my holes weren't in the joint. The joint fell about a quarter inch short of the 15 fret so I was just steaming into a solid block. No problem... with the fingerboard off I drilled directly into the glue and started steaming.... still steaming... nothing... Now with the extension off I can clearly see the headblock moving back and forth with the neck joint remaining firmly in tact.... even with the steam going directly into the glue it's not softening.
I had fixed a couple of bad repairs on this guitar already where someone had attempted to fix things with CA but did a really sloppy job. I was starting to wonder if perhaps at some point the neck was coming loose and so they glued the heel to the body with CA making it near impossible for me to steam it apart. If so I figured I was going to have to cut the glue joint freeing it up down to the tenon. So, with my japanese pull saw I carefully cut between the guitar body and the heel all the way down to the tenon in hopes that IF there was CA in there it would be free now... another round of steaming and still nothing.....
At this point I was really starting to lose my cool and was more intent on just getting the neck off so I could figure out what was going on than I was about actually fixing the guitar and making it playable again. So with my Japanese pull saw I finished what I started and cut the neck off. Looks like it's going to be a bolt-on now. But the part that still really frustrates me is that I still can't break it loose, even with the entire mortise and tenon exposed and steaming directly into it in several places all around the perimeter and digging a hot knife into the glue... it stays hard as a rock and the tenon won't budge. The only reason I'm not saying its epoxyed in is because when I was drilling holes in the glue it definitely smelled like HHG. So unless I'm wrong about that... I can't figure this out. I keep going back to it to see if I can get it loose with no success... and Einstein said that repeating the same action over and over again expecting different results is the definition of insanity... so yeah, I'm starting to go insane and this has been the source of nightmares for the last two nights.
I keep watching every video and reading every article on the subject that I can find comparing this to what I'm doing and can't find anything wrong. it seems like it should have just come right off. Aside from not hitting the joint the first time... I feel like i did everything right, but obviously the results say different. So, it's either me or just a really bad scrap to practice on.
Sorry for the lengthy post, but I really want to know what I'm doing wrong so I figured you needed to know exactly what I was doing and what I was dealing with and hopefully you could tell me what I am doing wrong.
Thanks.

[Mario Proulx]

Sadly, what you've encountered is the reason most experienced repairmen won't touch the imports.... Even with domestically produced instruments, there's a short list of makers and models a lot of us won't take-on.

Why haven't you just sawed the neck off by now? Sounds like you're nearly there?

[Ryan Mazzocco]

Thanks Mario. I Greatly value your opinions. I actually have sawed the whole thing off.
And I realize the pitfalls of dealing with cheap imports and how you never know what you're going to find... but I thought Alvarez was different. That's why I thought it would be a good practice piece. Was I wrong about that? would I better off going down to the pawn shop and picking up an old harmony or kay to use for practice?

[Mario Proulx]

Yup, those old Harmony's are perfect to work on.

So, how was this neck attached?

[Ryan Mazzocco]

It was just a a V shaped mortise and tenon joint set in a vat of glue. There were huge holes and gaps in the entire headblock area that were just filled with the rock hard glue. and the tenon wasn't very deep either. As I mentioned in my original post, the tenon was only about 7/16" deep. Which was why my holes drilled through the 15th fret missed the joint by about 3/16". The tenon is still in the headblock.

[Mark Swanson]

I think there is wood from the neck running alongside that trussrod all the way under the fingerboard. It's a pretty big chunk of wood underneath the fingerboard extension and it's part of the neck itself. These are really hard to work on, Ryan.

[Ryan Mazzocco]

oh okay. so do you think they did the thing where they set the neck before they put on the top so that the top actually covers everything?

[Michael Lewis]

If the glue remains hard and crispy even after several minutes of steam I suggest it is not hide glue.

Sometimes you can get model specific information from the manufacturer, or a forum devoted to that brand. You would be looking for joint type, glue used, and any tips regarding the repair.

When drilling for a dovetail pocket you really need to feel the drill drop as it enters the pocket indicating there is a void to steam into. If it doesn't drop you are in solid wood, as you have found.

Ryan, if you really want to learn repair work go ahead and repair this guitar. Fix the loose seams and bindings before attaching the neck. Be careful and do a great job regardless of the value of the instrument, because the value here in the experience you can gain.

In the future when steaming necks out, if they are not loose after 5 or 6 minutes you should stop and reassess the situation. Once the fingerboard is free of the body the dovetail should release within that time, often less. You have seen what excessive steam time can do, and that is paramount to avoid such issues. I use a shop vac stuck in the soundhole to suck out any moisture that leaks into the body. It's great for the "steam" condensation but if water is running around in there quickly mop it up as it can cause even more damage.

[Ryan Mazzocco]

Thanks Michael. your reply is extremely helpful. A lot of info there that can help me the next time around as well as proceeding forward with this one. I also don't have a water trap built into my steam set-up yet so there was quite a bit of water coming through with the steam. I knew it was not a good thing but figured I was in too deep (or maybe I was just lazy.)
I do want to get this guitar playing again so I will do my best to put it back together the right way. I know I'll learn a ton along the way. Thanks!

[Jeffrey L. Suits]

Ah, the wonders of the AMJ & AMG! And a de-facto lesson in converting to a bolt-on.

[Ryan Mazzocco]

Sometimes you can get model specific information from the manufacturer, or a forum devoted to that brand. You would be looking for joint type, glue used, and any tips regarding the repair.

I've been in contact with a Saint Louis Music rep regarding this guitar for a few months and he has always been very helpful, so I asked him about the neck joint last night and the response I got today was this:
"We believe it is a dovetail, but there are no records asserting this nor anything mentioned about the glue. Sorry we cannot help much on this one."
Not sure where to go with that... but just thought I'd share the latest with the group.

[Michael Lewis]

One idea to keep in mind is no production facility does everything the same way all the time. There is bound to be some deviation from spec at some time or other. Concerning Japanese manufacturing, a parent company will often use smaller suppliers to make stuff, and often not just one for a particular item but 3 or 4 different suppliers. The auto and motorcycle industry is the same in this regard. This means there can possibly be differing methods of manufacture, especially in the neck joint. I have seen variations of dowels, straight mortise and tenon, and a couple versions of a dovetail. Usually these guitars are not high end instruments so no great loss if they are damaged in the process of repair, but keep in mind the guitar belongs to someone, and that person may have an emotional attachment to it. This changes the situation somewhat in regard to how far you or the owner might be willing to go to effect a good repair.

[Mario Proulx]

Looking at the photos, it does appear to be a dovetail. I'd bet dollars to donuts that they, like many other Asian factories(including Tak, if I remember right) fill the entire cavity with a quick-set epoxy that will never release with steam. They do that instead of carefully fitting the dovetail; the dovetail is machined slightly oversize, then they get all the angles correct, a nice body-to-heel fit, and simply fill the cavity with this hard epoxy. It's a perfectly solid joint, but also perfectly impossible to remove...

[Ryan Mazzocco]

I guess when you consider that the cost of a neck reset is typically going to be more than the cost of a guitar like this it doesn't make too much sense for the manufacturer to make it so it can. What do they care? why have the job done when u can just buy a brand new guitar?
I have to say I'm really disappointed. I have been an Alvarez fan for years because I really thought they were different. I never thought of them as a "cheap Asian import" guitar.
I think you guys are right. Mario, this is exactly what it looks like has been done. What a mess.
so if I may ask... What is that "short list of makers and models that a lot of us won't take on?" I'm guessing Ovation is on there?

[Michael Lewis]

Ryan, Alvarez made some good instruments as well as inexpensive ones. I think the better ones usually have glued dovetail joints. Martin and Gibson also deal in low price brands, so it's not just Alvarez that does this.

[Ryan Mazzocco]

I thought about it for a couple weeks and went over everything I don't even know how many times. I decided that the only way to learn is to just do it. So I took my old Gibson acoustic off the wall and began the process. Less than half an hour later I was done and the results were better than I could have expected! It was amazing. I now understand that I was doing everything right... just on bad practice guitars. So anyway, I'm pretty much King of the World again and I guess I can do about anything I want.
And it wasn't just the neck. Even loosening the fretboard extension was tons easier. The entire process was so easy and felt really good. The only thing was that I did dent and chip the rosewood a little when pulling the fret (something I did not do the previous two attempts) but for some reason it was a lot harder to pull out, even with heat.
I'm just glad I finally got through it. thanks for all your help.

[Phillip Lee]

Ryan, a bolt-on conversion is a great way to go especially since you sawed the neck cleanly. I have done this twice on impossible to re-set guitars with great results. Not sure if I don't prefer this method on the cheaper Imports. I am surprised the Epoxy didn't loosen with heat, this is typically a weakness for the substance. Alvarez in the early 80's made fine instruments, not sure this is still the case in 2013.

[Ryan Mazzocco]

Thanks Phillip and I agree. I took on my first commission neck reset a couple weeks ago and used all this new experience to get me through. Coincidentally it was another old Alvarez. This time I had a plan ahead of time for whatever I might find. This one was a doweled butt joint. I cut it cleanly without damaging the the bound fretboard and only minimal damage to the original finish. turned her into a bolt on, cleaned her up and got paid from a happy customer.