Acoustic archtop non-traditional design and build

Please put your pickup/wiring discussions in the Electronics section; and put discussions about repair issues, including fixing errors in new instruments, in the Repairs section.
Nick Kitchener
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2023 5:37 pm

Acoustic archtop non-traditional design and build

Post by Nick Kitchener »

This is going to be a little non-traditional build. I've previously designed and built my own solid body guitar from scratch and this project is both to use up wood and yet another birthday build.

The focus is around finger/soft pick playing for exploring jazz and blues, acoustically whilst sat at home. It's specifically for me hence I have an open/wide remit. I may be tempted to add an accoustic pick up to the back of the sound board, possibly a neck-attacked floating. However the key will be acoustic so this won't have pickup holes through the sound board.

Now to the odd things
1) it'll be a longer 28.625" scale length and 7 string (B-E-e tuning), same as my solid body, plus I'll explore the effect of lower bout cutout to make sitting at a classical angle much more comfy. I have done this on the solid body - so the key for me is looking at the impact of sound (modes etc) for having the bridge set further back and the little comfort arch. Naturally the longer scale length has a tonal effect - I'm used to this on my existing guitar.
I play sitting and with the guitar in classical position.

2) the design will have a through-neck spar. This will not touch the arched front/back, braces but will be attached at the neck and tail blocks. This helps take a little load off the body frame due to the string tension being 90+kg.

To illustrate - this is a simple freeform sketch up using the existing guitar measurements:
Screenshot 2025-10-12 at 10.40.15.png
This shows a illustrative rough relationship and not fully accurate (it's not a cad diagram). The arch isn't entirely accurate for example.

One of the decisions I'll have to make is - do I add an access cutout. I'll also reduce the fret count from 24 to 22-20-18. I've been thinking that 12th fret body-neck boundary offers more soundboard length at the cost of upper fret access. I need to have a think around this. The longer scale length means the spacing of the frets are more spaced out. Hence a larger cut out, reducing sound board length (14th fret boundary) or reducing the number of frets.
To be honest the majority of frets I've use are up to about fret 18-20 on my normal guitar (I'm not someone that goes into massive ego-graduous solos).

I've done some FEM analysis previously on an idea with telecaster body shape but I felt that I'd be doing the acoustic sound a disservice and ending up with a Tim Henson sound which works for him but is a little unbalanced for me. I'll break out the FEM again once I have the shape decisions sorted.
Nick Kitchener
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2023 5:37 pm

Re: Acoustic archtop non-traditional design and build

Post by Nick Kitchener »

Woods! I completely forgot this morning. I have wood left over from the previous build so part of the reason for this is also to use up those woods.

The left overs from my other guitar are a very stable lamination lengths and offcuts thus was used for the neck-through previously, length and offcuts of hard maple, 1/3rd body block of alder, I also have some purple heart, and other offcuts.

Neck / Spar - leftover lamination of hard maple/wenge/walnut/purple heart/walnut/wenge/hard maple
Headstock - scarfe jointed lamination
Neck block - leftover lamination
Tail block/corner blocks (for rear section) - left over hard maple

Fretboard - leftover bubbling (African rosewood), the offcut length from the original guitar's fretboard

Top - spruce
Sides - sycamore / maple
Back - maple / spruce
Braces - spruce
Bridge - initially hard maple but as it will be a floating bridge I can swap out for a harder wood at a later date.
Lining - if I can spruce

With the last guitar I travelled to the yards and bought based on the wood and sound.
Nick Kitchener
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2023 5:37 pm

Re: Acoustic archtop non-traditional design and build

Post by Nick Kitchener »

The position of the bridge in the design is set further back than the standard bridge position. However it's the same position I have on my solid neckthrough and the acoustic vibations of that guitar is quite active with the lower notes showing up with strong vibrations at the upper horn and overall the guitar (acoustically) has a tight bottom end, middle seems quite pronounced and the uppers start ringing out but not in a strident way (unlike my fender basswod strat). Previously I'd cut down some of the body by taking some off the back, the mass reduction reduced the low end a little.

Ignoring the scale, intonation and fret positions (I calculated my own from the basic maths as part of the challenge) I've been thinking about energy and vibration modes. Previously I've done a lot of reading around university research texts etc whilst keeping in mind every guitar is different.

Looking at the new guitar, there's a couple of points:

First,the longer scale uses heavier strings - this increases the mass and energy presented during the string vibration. An important point here is that the string vibration energy is actually a product of the energy within fundamental frequency and harmonics of the string so bear that in mind.
The vibration energy then affects the modes present in the top. The high modes take more energy, so the more mass the string has (we're almost thinking E=mc^2 here) and the faster it's moving (higher frequency) the more energy is on tap.
This makes for careful consideration at the lower end of the frequency spectrum, where the lower modes vibrate axially along the entirety of the soundboard.
It also means that the energy from the plucked string (and the force from the string tension at 90kg) puts quite a bit of downforce onto the bridge and rotationally pulling the bridge forward/back. Food for thought about the bridge design and the structs underneath supporting the archtop itself. The stiffer the structs needed to support, the more energy is required to flex the top.

Second, the bridge position in terms of modal excitation across the top. Typically the top has f-holes and the bridge position is close to the centre of the soundboard but in later arch tops that's moved a little towards the tail. I have a theory here that the vibration of the bridge set closer to the tail, will result in a preference towards higher frequencies (the lower frequencies are harder to drive - like putting your finger closer to the edge of a speaker rather than the centre).
This bridge 'energy efficiency' is definitely going to reduce the instrument volume, but it's likely to alter the sound towards the frequencies that align with the spacing between the bridge and tail (and harmonic multiples).

I'm considering making a mould with the guitar shape, then place some thin balsa ply over the top to get a feel for the difference between traditional bridge and the intended location. I have an old speaker where the voice coil remains so this could be used as an exciter too to test modes etc of the shape.

Next is 'what bracing are you going to go with - parallel or X?' (or fan..).
The bridge position presents a challenge to both. I quite like the forward sound of the parallel but at the same time the X sounds mellower and more subtly detailed but can sound a little dull. The option here its to make an offset X offering some of both.
I think I will have a better idea following the test with the top. I'm tempted to add some talc to the top and then see what I get (I know it's not arched as test but the key is what will the bridge cause). I can then brace accordingly to shape for supporting lower modes but if there's higher modes/frequencies being overbearing, I can add some structs sculpted to reduce a little.

Shaping and bracing can increase lower end, but only if your lower end has enough energy to start with. In short - if the bridge position is going to kill the balance of frequencies then there's little point in putting the bridge in that location.. which has a knock on to scale and frets etc.

In terms of frets - this goes with the above.. playing I think 20-22 would be fine if there's a cutout on the upper bout however this impacts the modal frequencies. I may be tempted with 18 frets should I decide not go this route.

However the parts list is coming together (assuming no changes):
* European Spruce top
* European Spruce back
* European maple ribs (sides)
* Spruce bracing/struts
* Willow linings rather than kerfing
* Maple perfling (although I'm tempted by plastic due to durability)
* Neck - existing laminate
* Neck block - existing laminate / existing hard maple
* Tailback/corner blocks (if needed) - existing hard maple
* Fretboard - existing bubinga

* Schaller M4 minis - I have the M4 locking on guitar and the minis don't lock but they're also smaller and lighter.
* double action truss rod - this works well on my existing guitar and the neck is stable in the most part (530mm rod IIRC but this would be 560mm)
* carbon truss rods - two 4mm rod either side the truss rod, reason being humidity can play with the guitar but over the last year the original guitar has stabilised a lot. Adding carbon would help. The body spar may end up with carbon in to prevent it from flexing (not that it's likely). The less energy lost in flexing the wood should put more energy back into the top.
* nut - bone (I have an existing TUSQ I can use for the experiment)
* saddle - hard maple initially with bone insert, at a later date this may change.
* fretwire - nickel 2.5mm medium could be dunlop.
* Schaller pearl pickups under the top (this is another area of thinking. I will put a path in for a neck floating pickup and this too. A side mounted block will allow the jack securing at the bottom without getting in the way of the leg. My original guitar has the jack on the back side pointing up to allow cable to be attached to the stap and not be in the way when sitting.

However ... parts are the easy bit.
Alan Carruth
Posts: 1326
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:11 pm

Re: Acoustic archtop non-traditional design and build

Post by Alan Carruth »

There's a lot of ground to cover here.

I've used spar through construction on a couple of archtops. I mounted standard humbuckers on the spar, and cut out the top around them as closely as possible. This gave a solid mounting for the pickup, and a wide choice of ones to use, without adding the load to the top.

The arching of the top is primarily there to resist the down load of the bridge, although it has obvious acoustic consequences. The bridge should go at the highest point of the arch. The arch height scales with the thickness of the top, and not the length of the body. A tall arch with a thin top will take the load, but it will tend to have a 'thin' and 'harsh' sound.

The down load on the bridge is proportional to the tension and the sine of the break angle over the bridge. The view you show has a vary high break angle, and large download. I did one experiment on that, using an 'L' shaped tailpiece. The short arm of the L contacted the side below the edge to make the pivot point, and the string line from the bridge virtually went through the top on the way to the pivot. I was able to vary the pivot point within limits. As I moved it downward, at one point the sound 'choked up': the down load was limiting the ability of the top to move. Perhaps with a tall arch and thick top t would have worked better with a high break angle, but that would sacrifice acoustic sound, particularly in the low register. Since then I've used a minimal break angle; a little more than 6 degrees, with a notched bridge (common on arch tops) to prevent sideways movement of the strings. I'd re-work the neck setup with more overstand and less (or no) back angle, and a much lower bridge height.

I'd recommend down loading an Android app, 'Luthier Lab', that was written by a friend of mine. It had a module for designing the outline using circular arcs and straight lines, that can be printed out full size. Once you've got that you can enter a lengthwise arch and it will print out a contour map, based on curtate cycloid curves, for the outline. I'd recommend going to a 14 fret neck to get the high point a bit further up, so the arch won't need to be so pot bellied.

The arch patterns are laid out assuming that the low point is roughly at the inside edge of the liners. This provides good support at the edges for the down load. I've seen too many archtops with wide 'scoops' around the edge where the bridge had to be cranked up an inch or so to maintain the action as the top sunk. The recurve should slope upward from it's support all the way around, without going flat or, especially, sinking.

The vibration patterns you're getting on your previous, solid guitar are 'beam' bending modes to some extent, with some torsion modes due to the sideways extension of the body. The actual plate-like 'body' modes are shifted 'way up in pitch, and probably don't enter into the tone much. On a normal acoustic there will be a dozen or more 'top' resonant modes below about 1000 Hz, a similar number of 'back' modes, and about the same number of internal 'air' resonances in that range. They all 'couple' more or less promiscuously, particularly above 700 Hz or so. There are a few 'beam' modes, but usually the only one that makes much difference is the lowest one. Your FEM needs to have the ability to model air modes.

The bridge, of course, is a point load on the top, and that changes the way it vibrates to some extent, but not as much as you might think. If you're going to graduate the top so that it's thicker around the bridge that has an effect as well. I think it's important to get the stiffness and mass distribution in the top (and back) to be reasonably smooth, with neither dominating the other, as I hinted above. IMO this is the way to get 'fat trebles'.

I have usually used 'X' bracing on archtops, with the lower arms of the X passing under the feet of the bridge. On one of the spar-through instruments it turned out to work better structurally to have the X cross behind the bridge, but it didn't effect the sound much. Again, the important part is to get the top arch, graduation pattern, and bracing, to work together smoothly.

The tail piece takes up any rotational force on the bridge. That's why arch tops can use 'floating' bridges. Make sure the downward force vector, the bisector of the break angle, passes through the bridge base. The bridge you're showing would not stand up.

I don't know if your reading included it, but you can download Jansson's 'Acoustics for Violin and Guitar Makers' 4th edition, free from
http://www.speech.kth.se/music/acviguit4/
Get part1.pdf through part9.pdf.
Nick Kitchener
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2023 5:37 pm

Re: Acoustic archtop non-traditional design and build

Post by Nick Kitchener »

Thank you Alan - I was hoping to get some experienced feedback.

I have done some research in the past with doing FEM on shapes to give a hint at the modal frequencies, hence the bridge position is both of interest and concern - there's very little in terms of analysis of modes beyond non-standard designs for guitars. It occurred to me to look at Lute analysis (I found one item) and violin too. The lute was interesting that the bridge position and lute strut design (across the Lute only) resulted in modes divided along the length of the lute from neck to tail rather than across the lute (of the first five modes, the fourth breaks this).

I stumbled on this very interesting piece on violins: https://www.thestrad.com/lutherie/good- ... 05.article specifically in terms of the vibration poles being unequal deliberately to increase volume. I knew bracing struts changed the frequency response but specifically the interesting piece is the difference in + and - resulting in the projection plus the use of different thickness on the back to increase this effect. It's interesting to see violins are intentionally wonky and unbalanced.

In short the proposed bridge position would not limit the lower modes (as the shape of the guitar is still able to support it) but the power transferred/damping results in lower amplitude for those modes (seems to be the case for lutes), resulting in stronger resonance where the bridge is favourable with the modes. There result is less power and volume of the lower registers, more reinforcing resonance support of the higher making the sound thinner and more sterile with high attack but less sustain in the lower registers but sustain in the higher.

So this is looking like physics is steering towards (a) more central lower bout bridge position) and (b) shallower angle - ie gravitating towards the more traditional design. This does shift the fretboard and obviously the neck balance point, so an option is to reduce the scale length a little to help compensate - I'd like to keep it longer if I can but if it's uncomfortable/inconvenient sitting to play then I may need to review the scale length.

Thank you for the point about carrying the arch to the edge vs sinking, that's not something that's occurred to me (other than bridge depression). I have read a bit on the profiles of thick outer/thinner centre and the opposite of thick centre and thinner outer being used/in fashion over the ages in violins - the effect on modes too. For this I'll stick with the more traditional profile with thinner outer.

I'll have a think today and have a read through Jansson's work.
Alan Carruth
Posts: 1326
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:11 pm

Re: Acoustic archtop non-traditional design and build

Post by Alan Carruth »

" It's interesting to see violins are intentionally wonky and unbalanced."

It's hard to generalize across platforms between the violin and the guitar. I make both, worked for some years with Carleen Hutchins, and knew Fred Dickens, who did work on guitars, so I've got some handle on this.

The problem of getting sound out of a fiddle arises because the bow drives the string more or less parallel to the plane of the top. To move air the soundboard needs to move perpendicular to it's plane. Early fiddles, some of which were basically just guitars with high curved-top bridges, have a thin, nasal sound and lack power (I've made a couple). If you remove the sound post from a violin (pick a fairly sturdy one) you can check this out, although the bar will produce some asymmetry.

They had addressed the issue of down load on the top in two ways: a post between the top and back top prop up the top, and a ridge along the center line to stiffen the top. The ridge was originally simply an area that was not carved thinner, which also reinforced the center join. Later they found that a glued in bar was better, and a bar that was a bit off center was better still. One reinforcement made it 'trebly' because of the added stiffness and the other made it 'bassy' from the asymmetry. Somewhere around 1550 somebody got the idea of using both, and the modern violin was born with both added bass and treble.

The post pretty much 'nails' the point on the top where it sits, so that the bridge pivots around that point. This produces vertical movement in the bass foot of the bridge which sits above the bass bar. The bar distributes that movement along the length of the top, producing a monopole area to pump air. With this combination the tone and power increased enough that they went from three strings to four (adding the low G).

In short, the post and bar are an effort to retrieve a poor drive geometry in the violin. Carleen used to say that the efficiency of the violin is about half that of the guitar, in large part because of the small monopole area. They get away with it by dumping in a lot more power than we can with plucked strings.

I've tried putting sound posts in archtop guitars, and have seen a couple of flat top and Classical guitars with posts. With some post positions you can get a bit more sound, but basically it's best used to kill the top and cut out feedback at the 'main air' pitch.

I've always wanted to do some work with lute acoustics. I exchanged a couple of messages with Robert Lundberg about tracking his tap tuning method of top tuning using Chladni patterns, but he died before we could do that. I do have a braced top, but it would have been nice to see where he would have taken it, rather than flying blind. One of my students is a lute player, and at some point (in my copious free time) I'd like to do some patterns on an assembled lute, and run some input admittance tests. I suspect the setup taps into the twice-per-cycle tension change of the strings better than the guitar does, but given the lac of power in that string mode it's probably more of a 'timbre' thing and a source of power. For that matter, it could also enhance the 'zip' pitch of the strings, but I have yet to look at that aspect on gut strings (again, copious free time...).

It's been a while since I followed the latest research on violin. My understanding is that measurements carried out in collections have indicated that the graduation and arching patterns tend to fall into 'schools'. This makes some sense, since both are methods of fine tuning the stiffness distribution in the plate. The 'curtate cycloid' arch pattern seems to be a characteristic of the later Cremona school; post-plague Nicolo Amati, Strad, and so on. The museum specimens show 'reverse graduations' on these: more or less uniform thickness except for a thinner area along the center line of the top. When I started out making violins and archtops I didn't know about the cycloid arches, and used 'standard' graduations on the tops. I used 'x' bracing on archtop guitars. Most of my more recent guitars have used reverse grads on the tops, and some of the backs have been uniform, rather than graduated. It would be hard to point to much systematic difference in the sound. My most recent archtop was built as an 'homage' to a Lloyd Loar L-5, and used 'standard' grads and 'parallel' bars rather than the X. The customer wanted an 'Eddie Lang' sort of acoustic sound (no pickup), and it seems to have worked. Sadly, we were unable to get it together with the original for comparison.

Power transfer is a function of input admittance: basically the impedance match between the string and bridge at the driving point at a particular frequency. The function of the the bridge is to define the vibrating length of the string by providing enough of a mis-match to keep most of the energy in the string. The 'wolf' note on the 'cello is an example of what happens when the match is too close: the string doesn't 'know' how long it is at it's fundamental because of bridge motion, and shifts upward an octave. This eliminates the signal that was driving the problematic resonance, the bridge stops moving, and the fundamental length is defined again. Rinse and repeat, several times per second....

A bridge down near the end will probably have high impedance at most pitches, and little problem with 'wolf' notes. You'll see lots of sustain, even with a light top and low arch. So long as the top isn't too 'lumpy' I suspect the vibration will find it's home, so to speak, and you could get a decent sound. The more I think of it, the more I'd go with a low arch and thin top. I've made a couple of arch top Classical guitars, using 12mm arch height (rise from the upper surface of the edge to the top at the bridge) and 3mm thickness, on a 16" 'small Jumbo' platform. They sounded good, and were stable. The bracing for a top that has the bridge as far down as you're contemplating is going to be an 'interesting' challenge. I'm thinking of a sort of 'H', with a short top and the cross bar just above the bridge. Maybe.... ;)
Nick Kitchener
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2023 5:37 pm

Re: Acoustic archtop non-traditional design and build

Post by Nick Kitchener »

So I'm continuing to research.. and a little birthday trip I've been to a local instrument maker/wood specialist. There's three in driving distance but this is the first time I've been to Touchstone Tonewoods here in the sound of the UK. Lovely wood selection, better than the website would have you think. I got to go through their wedges and give them a knock for sound. I picked on ring rather than density of the wood grain or flame, although all are straight:
IMG_5167.jpg
So I have to start cracking on with - front and back wedges, sides, brace and linings. I've put the paper up on the glass board and so I can start drawing out the design.
Nick Kitchener
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2023 5:37 pm

Re: Acoustic archtop non-traditional design and build

Post by Nick Kitchener »

I've been working through aspects of the geometry.
IMG_5175.jpg
First I can see why Luthiers bring the bridge forward to make the break angle easier.

Second I've been looking at the spar and the concept of putting a pair of carbon fibre truss rods from neck to tail. In short this make fitting geometry and the neck thickness hard, especially with the position of the bridge. I'm attempting to keep a 6 degree break angle and fit these into a reasonably thin neck, the neck would have a weird thickness profile if this was to remain. The alternative is to provide spar through to into the neck but not through the entire neck in one piece. That way the neck wouldn't have the strange profile. I've not really had an issue with the neck on the current guitar, so an option is to remove the CF except from the spa which would have a thinner laminate slice anyway.
Alan Carruth
Posts: 1326
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:11 pm

Re: Acoustic archtop non-traditional design and build

Post by Alan Carruth »

I downloaded your drawing to look at it, but the image quality and resolution were much too low to be able to glean much information. Could you post some details with more contrast?
Nick Kitchener
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2023 5:37 pm

Re: Acoustic archtop non-traditional design and build

Post by Nick Kitchener »

I’ve just been working through - I’ll make a clean image from the cleaner diagram tomorrow which should make it easier to see.
Nick Kitchener
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2023 5:37 pm

Re: Acoustic archtop non-traditional design and build

Post by Nick Kitchener »

This is probably still uploading/processing but, rather than just photos, I've uploaded a walkthrough in thinking:
https://youtu.be/TXnRHXQTDRk
IMG_5189.jpeg
IMG_5190.jpeg
I've had to reduce the resolution to 2048 and compress with jpeg to get into the board limits.

I also made a boo-boo on my calculations, looking at this again:

if we take x, bridge height, as 20, 30 and 40mm, our neck scale is 727
tan-1(x/727) => 1.57, 2.36, 3.1 degrees respectively for our neck string angles, Na

if we then calculate Ay, as the upper securing point 'A', the bridge is 173 away:
tan-1(Ay/173) => 6.59, 9.84, 13.01 degrees respectively.

if we then calculate By as Ay+12mm, as the upper securing point 'B', the bridge is 173 away:
tan-1(By/173) => 10.80, 13.96, 17.03 degrees respectively.

More accurately, if I use the different angles to actually calculate the down force for the respective bridge position (assuming deg on the calculator), this assumes static and balanced distribution of load):
FA= T*sin(Ay) + T*sin(Na )
FB= T*sin(By) + T*sin(Na)

90Kg of tension in converted to lbs, T = 199lbs, gives a down force for each:

Code: Select all

Point |  20  |  30  |  40 |
A    | 28.3  | 42.2 | 55.5 |
B    | 42.7 | 56.20 | 69.04 |
Seems pretty high so I may still have a problem with maths.. it's late and I'm tired (given a 12deg standard archtop break is about 19lbs
)
Alan Carruth
Posts: 1326
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:11 pm

Re: Acoustic archtop non-traditional design and build

Post by Alan Carruth »

Why are you using the bridge heights you've chosen? Do you need clearance for a pickup?
Nick Kitchener
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2023 5:37 pm

Re: Acoustic archtop non-traditional design and build

Post by Nick Kitchener »

Alan Carruth wrote: Thu Oct 30, 2025 5:46 pm Why are you using the bridge heights you've chosen? Do you need clearance for a pickup?
That's being influenced on research, I'll iterate today and redo the neck and alignment/clearance. I've got a clearance of 12mm that I think many of the neck-mounted pickups need so I'll look at that.
Alan Carruth
Posts: 1326
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:11 pm

Re: Acoustic archtop non-traditional design and build

Post by Alan Carruth »

I've used the bar in the body as a mounting point for a standard humbucker, and cut a hole in the top. Properly reinforced, and with reasonably tight clearance, it doesn't seem to hurt the sound, and it can be right down on the top.

You might also explore a fairly tall overstand at the neck end to get the pickup off the top, with a downward neck angle to produce a low bridge. Looks funny, but "all's fair..".
Nick Kitchener
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2023 5:37 pm

Re: Acoustic archtop non-traditional design and build

Post by Nick Kitchener »

Just uploading an update video:
https://youtu.be/oiIEopGTMI4

So the updates:

1. I've walked through Mike Conner's great arch build journal: https://www.mimf.com/Builds/Archtop%20B ... %20Res.pdf with the idea that if I have through through the build steps and the differences in my design etc that I'll not design something that's impossible to build..

2. I've gravitated towards a 4 degree neck angle, I've looked at 3 degree but it doesn't recover much space for the neck pickup.

3. I've decided 20 frets is good enough, I can reach and it means I've decided to build without an access cutout.

4. If I was creating the neck from scratch I could create a neck with the 4x4mm hole for the carbon fibre structs but instead I think it may be better to treat the neck and body with separate lengths of cf.

5. I've redrawn the body outline, this includes studying geometry from Stradivarius (the Strad website is great and there's also some nice geometry ideas: https://www.thestrad.com/lutherie/using ... 56.article) so this now means the guitar bout looks a little more traditional.
I still have the upperbout to neck curve to finish but I'm happy with the design.

I'm now thinking around the X bracing pattern and how this would fit and provide support.
IMG_5193.jpeg
IMG_5194.jpeg
Alan Carruth
Posts: 1326
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:11 pm

Re: Acoustic archtop non-traditional design and build

Post by Alan Carruth »

Neck angle per se doesn't matter. What determines the down force on the top is the break angle and string tension. The overstand of the neck and the tension produce the force that pulls the neck up: the lower the overstand for a given tension the lower the force pulling the heel away from the body. With the through bar that should not be an issue.

If you're going to use a neck mounted pickup you know how far off the top the strings will be at that point. You can take a stab at the bridge height and draw a line from there the right height off the top for the pickup. See where that puts the fingerboard surface, accounting for action, fret height, and so on. Basically you rotate the string plane around that pickup clearance to get the two ends, the neck and the bridge, to be at heights you can live with. More overstand with the same pickup allowance and bridge height gives a lower neck angle. This is not a traditional guitar, and the traditional measures don't necessarily apply. Obviously if the thing just looks too weird, and will be hard to hold, you may need to make adjustments.
Nick Kitchener
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2023 5:37 pm

Re: Acoustic archtop non-traditional design and build

Post by Nick Kitchener »

I think some neck angle is required, with 199lbs (more of an upper threshold but worth planning for heavier strings) of tension there will be a force to the bridge applied due to the angle of the trapezium applied to the bridge. Almost till compared to the solid body 45 degree from the through body towards bridge, then 45degree over the bridge, but I feel a little is required.

I may move towards 2 degrees which should increase the pickup clearance. I'll have a look at the forces involved too on the bridge. Non-traditional could be that although the fret board stops at 20th fret, the fretboard continues to provide additional clearance and positioning of the neck pickup. A simple card cutout of the neck would be faster - I've got some magnetic holders so I can set up different neck angles and heights and then step back and look before deciding.

I agree that this could be reduced and the neck moved to provide a better alignment (pickup). I'll have some time today to get back to the drawing board again.
Alan Carruth
Posts: 1326
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:11 pm

Re: Acoustic archtop non-traditional design and build

Post by Alan Carruth »

You do need about six degrees of break angle to keep the strings from hopping off the bridge when they're plucked. That's not enough to keep them from rolling or sliding across the bridge top, and that has to be notched to take care of that issue.

Most archtops and violins use a second 'saddle' down at the bottom end to take the pressure of the tail gut. This can be, and usually is, made taller than the thickness of the top to provide clearance at the lower end of the tailpiece. That's one tool you can use the establish the break angle you want. The strings will follow a line from the top of the bridge saddle to the top of the bottom saddle; the tail[piece can extend above or below that line. On violins, for example, the strings go into the top of the tailpiece, and the tail gut comes out near it's lower edge, to the tailpiece extends upward from the lower saddle at the bottom end, and it's upper end is below the string line. If you make the bottom saddle very tall it will also need to be wide, so that ti won't tip over. The line bisecting the break angle at the lower end has to pass through the base of the bottom saddle.

One does wish they'd come up with another name for the thing... ;)
Nick Kitchener
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2023 5:37 pm

Re: Acoustic archtop non-traditional design and build

Post by Nick Kitchener »

I was just about to summarise that. Considering both 165lbs and 199lbs to allow for bridge movement and for heavier strings if need be - I had a look a 1.18deg neck angle (around 20lbs, 9.4Kg) and 2deg giving 23lb at the lower 20mm bridge but raising the neck itself. It does allow some more clearance (around 15mm). I'm aiming to keep 25-35lb of down force and the angles to prevent the bridge moving as you've pointed out. I'll make a decision tomorrow once I have a look at the pencil lines - 2deg seems like an option and 6-8 deg on the tail side with just 20mm bright height (leaving some room for increasing height etc, and I'll check the bridge foot width angles).

The analysis paralysis in concern of not having enough down force for strum (not really that heavy) and the bridge making a bid for freedom but at the same time <60lbs seems like common sense from what I've read.

Once this is done - I'll look at the neck-neck block just to make sure it's not going to snap. I need to add some additional neck block engagement on the neck.

I've been umming and erring about two things:
1. shape modes - I'm not sure the FEM analysis will really do too much but it feels like it may stop me making a clanger. I may just go with doing the top plate and braces then tune the back higher which then brings me to point 2:
2. bracing - the option here of X bracing - it will work and then it's a case of tuning patterns shape and clarity adding/adjusting as I go.

I'll make a simple cut out template just to test shape and how it sits. I can also then infer quite a bit about the weight distribution to avoid nose dive. Then we're onto building the mould and cradles. I've taken some hints from Mike's journal including using the cradle for closing up and to provide a basis for perfling channel routing.

In other news my dial gauge (1" travel 0.0005" graduations) arrived so I now can thickness accurately :ugeek:
Nick Kitchener
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2023 5:37 pm

Re: Acoustic archtop non-traditional design and build

Post by Nick Kitchener »

I've started doing a more accurate mark out (I found I was out of square doing the scaffolding hence the redrawn lines with ticks and crosses):
IMG_5203.jpg
It's easier to see the outline now through the chord markings. I've marked on a 2" neck block and a 1" tail block but I may also add corner blocks on the rear curve. The pencil arc' near the bottom is the arc of the solid body (12" across body), in short this feels massive "in person" - too late now :mrgreen:

I've added two ideas for X bracing - the first being 'A' in purple that maximises the brace coverage but the other 'B' is more in line with a flat top acoustic like Martin.

My thinking here is that bracing A will lock up the top, creating a stiffer top and creating a narrower mid-high tone at the expense of bass, bracing B will be more balanced and offer space to adjust the tone with additional braces (ala normal).
Post Reply

Return to “Archtop Guitars and Bass Guitars”