Refretting my Ibanez ES-175 Clone

[Michael McBroom]

The Guitar is a 1977 Ibanez 2355M, looks like some sort of deluxe Gibson ES-175 with flame maple all over. It's in great cosmetic and electrical condition, except for the fingerboard. The old frets had been filed down so far that only about half the original height was left, and they hadn't even been crowned, so it wasn't much fun at all to play.

So I removed the frets. I've tried installing new ones and noticed two things: First, the new frets, with a 0.021" tang width, fit loosely. I tried gluing them in with superglue but some of them didn't want to stay put. Second, I have a set of fingerboard radius gauges. I've been assuming this 2355M has a 12" radius, but according to my gauges, some expanses of the fingerboard have a radius closer to 9.5" -- which is a later Fender radius. At the very end of the fingerboard -- the 20th fret -- it is clearly a 12" radius. But if I move up to like the 5th fret or so, the radius most closely matches 9.5". But it's not an even radius. I think the condition this fingerboard is in is a result of some overzealous sanding in the past. Perhaps there were some rather deep ruts that would have required such overzealousness. But obviously whoever did this couldn't be bothered with using a radius sanding block. Or maybe the 9.5" to 12" compound taper was intentional?

What I mean by not being an even radius is, there are sections of the fingerboard that almost appear as if they have a 12" radius that's been rounded down some on the corners. When I installed frets in these areas, they exhibited what I would describe as a shoulder after I tapped them into position. Not all frets exhibited this -- maybe a third of them. So, even in this instance, the radius isn't a true 9.5".

So anyway, if this 2355M originally had a 12" radius (or metric equivalent -- 300mm?), it doesn't have it any longer. Which causes me to ponder its overall condition. I've got a guitar with somewhere between a 9.5" and 12" fingerboard radius and with worn-out fret slots. Which means it's had its frets changed out at least once before I removed them and, somewhere along the line, somebody got too aggressive with sanding down the fingerboard without benefit of a contour block. But somehow the fingerboard binding's nibs managed to survive this -- or, I'm thinking, they may have been restored after the last fret job. Or maybe I'm just hallucinating, for all I know. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of things so I can refret this verklempte thing.

Because of the worn-out slots, I'm thinking that I might should try gluing the frets in with epoxy or Titebond instead of super glue. I'm leaning toward epoxy because Titebond takes too long to set up. But because the fingerboard radius is inconsistent, I need to contour it correctly -- back to 12", which will require than I remove more fingerboard material. I'll probably have to recut fret slots and hopefully I won't sand through the inlays. I'm also contemplating replacing the fingerboard entirely, but that will involve the most work and expense of all, so it will be a step of last resort. Oh, and I 86'd the nibs. They were like the first things to go once I realized how this repair was becoming more complicated.

I have a few things on order to make episode 2 of this refret job go a bit smoother. Looks like I'll be cooling my jets for the better part of a week. I'm really looking forward to finishing this ordeal so that I'll have a properly playing 2355M once and for all. I'll let y'all know how things turn out.

And if there's any advice you have to offer, I'm willing to pay attention.

[Barry Daniels]

My advice, take it to a professional if you ever want to get the job right.

[Michael McBroom]

I've been building guitars since 2004, and I do all my own work. During this time, I've also done fret jobs on a variety of guitar types, including refretting them. I've just never run across one before that was in such poor shape. Which is why I decided to mention it here at all. You see, my goal is to gain experience, not to farm work out to someone else who may or may not be able to do as good of a job as I can.

[Freeman Keller]

Michael, a couple of random thoughts. First, you can buy fret wire with wider than 0.023 tangs. Martin techs use it for "compression fretting" - they should be able to get it for you or maybe the 1883 Shop. You'll probably be limited to medium crown.

Don't know why your fret board measures what it does - sounds like someone might have tried to make it compound, A 175 should have a 12 inch radius floating ToM so you probably should shoot for that on your f/b. You mention that the f/b is bound with nibs, that gives you another dilemma - nix 'em (easy) or keep them (about as difficult as you will ever get). If the nibs are still there it kind of rules out someone changing the f/b radius. I have an old Ibanez L-5 clone with nibs, the owner wants it refretted, I've been postponing the inevitable.

[Barry Daniels]

Sorry. Due to the questions, I thought you were inexperienced.

Sounds like the fretboard should be re-radiused by sanding with a radiused caul. If the low spots are not too deep then the fret slots and inlays will not be thinned our too much. Once you start sanding the low spots will show up and you can then measure the depth that you will need to go to get them out. That will tell you if your inlays are in danger. Most inlays are at least .040" thick.

Jescar has fretwire with various tang widths.

[Michael McBroom]

Barry and Freeman, thanks for your responses.

Freeman, honestly I don't think anyone was trying to make a compound radius, reason being that some of the areas on the fingerboard resemble a 12" radius with too much taken off the edges, which ended up approximating a 9.5" radius. Or that's my theory at any rate. Since this is my personal guitar and I have no intention of selling it, I decided to go ahead and nix the nibs. They are gone now, but I was careful to preserve the fingerboard contour as I removed them -- not really too difficult to do, really. Which presents the mystery -- obviously somebody, after doing a lousy job of re-contouring this fingerboard, went to the trouble of either replacing the binding so they could add back in the nibs (doubtful), or they added the nibs back in using melted fingerboard goo or white epoxy or something. That really has me puzzled.

I wasn't aware of Martin as a source for guitar materials, but I'm doubtful that they will have what I'm looking for. I like tall frets. The ones I bought for it are 0.055" tall, which I like a lot. I own an Ibanez AG85 and it has 0.055" tall frets and I really, really like the way that guitar plays. I also own an Epiphone Joe Pass Emperor Pro II, a recent acquisition, and it has frets that are an amazing 0.065" tall. I really like the way it plays too.

Barry, good to know about the inlay thickness. I should be safe. The frets I bought initially for this refret job -- the frets I installed in fact -- were Jescar frets -- their 55095 ones. Unfortunately, the tang width is only 0.020" I think. I would really like to find some with the same spec as the 55095s but with thicker tangs. Interestingly enough, when I revisited Jescar's website to reorder some fretwire, I noticed their 55090 size and it apparently is available in both a 0.020" and 0.025" tang thickness. Only problem is, there doesn't appear to be any way to select and/or order the frets with the thicker tang. So I sent Jescar an email asking about this, and haven't received a reply yet. If I can get some of the 55090 with a 0.025" tang, that will be pretty much problem solved.

Although . . . it occurs to me that if I have to recut the fret slots after recontouring the fingerboard, I can probably get by with the original 55095 wire, cuz my fret saw has a 0.020" kerf. So, I guess what I'm gonna do is wait to reorder fretwire until I've recontoured the fingerboard. I've ordered a contour block and a fret saw from StewMac that lets me work around binding, so these two new tools should get me where I need to be.

[Michael McBroom]

It's been a while since I've updated this repair, so I thought I'd bring y'all up to the present. It's been an ordeal that I'll not soon forget. I bought a few StewMac items, including a 12" radius caul, one of their handy little fret saws for dealing with a fingerboard with binding installed, a piece of this teflon material for use with cleaning up fret slots, and one 2-ft stick of fretwire (shoulda bought two).

The original fretwire I bought failed miserably. So I used that sheet of 0.020" thick Teflon, cut it into strips, and inserted the strips into the fret slots to recondition them -- and also to repair the chip-out that occurred when I first pulled some of the frets. But first, I used my new StewMac fret saw to clean up and deepen the fret slots. That ended up being a lot more work than I thought, and I even ended up breaking the binding in a couple of spots, so rather than reglue the cracked binding, I just removed all of it. I have a stick of binding large enough to bind an entire dreadnought body, which is more than enough for two sides of a neck.

So anyway, I reconditioned the slots using the Teflon, fingerboard dust and thin cyano glue. After pulling the Teflon strips out, there were ridges left, so I used the 12" radius block to sand everything smooth. I had hopes that it might take care of some of the odd radius configuration at the lower positions, but it didn't. The radius down there is like 10" on the corners and 12" across the top of the fingerboard. Wonderful. Not by much, and not so's you'd notice if you weren't laying the radius block over the fingerboard. So the game plan has remained the same -- just refret the dang thing and be done with it.

Well, easier said than done, apparently. In a moment of brain drain, I decided to reuse the frets that had failed earlier, reasoning that the newly reconditioned slots would hold them. They didn't. So I yanked them and gave the StewMac fretwire a go. Now, one good thing about the StewMac fretwire is it has a deeper tang, like 0.074" deep, compared to about 0.050" or so. And the barbs are located close to the bottom edge, so they're cutting into wood that hasn't been cut into before. Well, thankfully, the StewMac wire worked. Now, I just need to order another stick of it. I selected the wide/highest fretwire -- 0.110 x 0.053 -- and I have to say, I like the way it looks and feels.

And, since I'll be replacing the binding, it looks like I'll be able to add back in the nibs, to give it that clean Gibson-like look. In fact, I'll have to add the nibs, since I've nipped the frets flush with the unbound fingerboard edges.