Experimental Violin Part Two

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Douglas Ingram
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Re: Experimental Violin Part Two

Post by Douglas Ingram »

Barry, I'm really intrigued by what you are working on. I'll be following any developments that you care to post.

I am curious about the shape. Is there a reason for the long waist? It makes the upper and lower bouts look much more bulbous.

I really like how these last two are looking, but I'm starting to think that your very traditional tailpiece is looking a little out of place now. Your aesthetics are changing and the tailpiece is getting left behind.

Looking forward to seeing what you come up with next!
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Jason Rodgers
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Re: Experimental Violin Part Two

Post by Jason Rodgers »

If I were to take a vote on the shape of the sound slits you've presented so far, I'd take the curved slits on #1 (with or without the inlayed dots on the ends) with the oval hole. That, to my eyes, has good flow.

I'll agree with Douglas regarding the tailpiece, as well. You've been challenged, sir, to be creative!
-Ruining perfectly good wood, one day at a time.

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Barry Guest
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Re: Experimental Violin Part Two

Post by Barry Guest »

Douglas, I haven't really bothered about the tailpiece yet, because all four of these are prototypes. However, the last (#4) is the one I will be pursuing. It has the most amazing amplitude, projection and tone. I'm still waiting on the video tests by a Phd in Music Performance (Violin), so I'm sitting tight at the moment until those tests come through.

Your comments on the shape are curious because I used a Stradivari pattern template that I made years ago, taking the corners out and omitting the overhang that is the norm in traditional violins.

Jason Sir, challenge accepted! :?
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Jason Rodgers
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Re: Experimental Violin Part Two

Post by Jason Rodgers »

Barry Guest wrote:Your comments on the shape are curious because I used a Stradivari pattern template that I made years ago, taking the corners out and omitting the overhang that is the norm in traditional violins.
I would not have expected that. All the geometry so revered in Strad's work is there, but the visual effect is so different!
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Barry Guest
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Re: Experimental Violin Part Two

Post by Barry Guest »

Yes Jason. Which makes Doug's comment so relevant to perceptions of change. And I suppose most people would look at it and think "whoa, that's different!", when a couple of omissions (corners and overhang) are the only changes (other than the obvious acoustical changes) that I have made.
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Jason Rodgers
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Re: Experimental Violin Part Two

Post by Jason Rodgers »

This bit of information is also good for the skeptic who comes from the lutherie side: the top and back are obviously of a different construction than a traditional fiddle, but when talking about body geometry, volume, helmholtz, etc., you might have some apples-to-apples to work with (or at least apples-to-pears?). Once you understand that there are a lot more things similar than different, it might take some of the visual bias out of the overall perception of the instrument's performance. I didn't see that talk at the 2011 GAL convention on the balsa violins (written up in AL recently), but it sure was a good experiment to put Marshall Brune behind that curtain for the blind sound test. It would be fun if you could do something similar, Barry.
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Barry Guest
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Re: Experimental Violin Part Two

Post by Barry Guest »

In fact, I have kept the body volume very close to two liters by increasing the depth of the sides in consideration of the flat top. This has allowed me to maintain a Helmholtz of around 280 Hz, which has become the norm over time. A normal violin of 280 Hz will typically have a combined "F" hole surface area of 1375 sq mm. My prototype #4 has an elliptical soundhole of 1230 sq mm, while the "curved slits" have a combined area of 132 sq mm (total 1362 sq mm)

So, I reckon it's more apples to apples than pears to apples, except of course for the flat top, slits and elliptic sound hole, which is the whole reason I began this journey. And that is to prove or disprove the final three paragraphs of this essay by of John McLennan's. http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/music/publi ... fholes.pdf

Jason, I'm hoping for a blind test at sometime in the future, but I still have some experimentation to complete.
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Barry Guest
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Re: Experimental Violin Part Two

Post by Barry Guest »

Here is the link comparing the second Prototype of the Violare Project to a very fine Lupot violin. This particular Lupot is known for it's volume and according to the owner ..."if you are aiming for volume, clarity/brilliance with a warm tone where it's needed, the Lupot is a great target"

I think this comparison shows what I thought of prototype #2, that there was more work to do. Please note that the video indicates Prototype #1, however, it is actually #2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_xrVPgS-8M


Prototype #4 is going to John McLennan at the end of June for acoustical tests. Prototype #5, and the last in this series of experiments, is still on the bench.

Thanks for reading
Baz
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Samuel Hartpence
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Re: Experimental Violin Part Two

Post by Samuel Hartpence »

The Lupot certainly has more volume/projection, but to my ear, yours is a bit more articulate and has more clarity.

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Beate Ritzert
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Re: Experimental Violin Part Two

Post by Beate Ritzert »

Barry Guest wrote: I think this comparison shows what I thought of prototype #2, that there was more work to do.
Do You think You'll be able to reach the Lupot ?

Jason Rodgers
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Re: Experimental Violin Part Two

Post by Jason Rodgers »

Samuel Hartpence wrote:The Lupot certainly has more volume/projection, but to my ear, yours is a bit more articulate and has more clarity.
It's nice to hear some comparisons. As we've been discussing, despite the obvious construction differences, there are more things alike than different between a traditional instrument and your experimentals.

Through my computer speakers, I'd say that the in-your-face-ed-ness of the two is pretty close, but the Lupot sounds a little "looser," more "relaxed," resulting in a bit more low end and depth.

Keep em coming!
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Barry Guest
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Re: Experimental Violin Part Two

Post by Barry Guest »

Sam, thanks for that. However, I think you are being too kind. To my ear, the Lupot is ahead in all departments, but that doesn't phase me. It's a really good target and my prototype # 4 is yet to be tested. Also, #5 is in construction and should be finished by the end of July (we are currently moving house).
Number 5 is a combination of #4 and #1 with the slits curving back to the soundhole and then following the outline of the center bouts. This design provides an enormous free plate area (relatively speaking).

Beate, I do think #5 will compare favorably, and you must consider that I will be selling the Violare for about $1500, while that Lupot is worth $78,000.

Jason, I will keep 'em coming because I am convinced this concept works. Thanks heaps for your encouragement.
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Jason Rodgers
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Re: Experimental Violin Part Two

Post by Jason Rodgers »

I'm going to keep watching... my daughter came home from school yesterday after a presentation in music class about starting the strings program next year in 4th grade. She said she really likes the viola, so I may need to try my hand at one of these "flat tops."
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Beate Ritzert
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Re: Experimental Violin Part Two

Post by Beate Ritzert »

Barry Guest wrote:... you must consider that I will be selling the Violare for about $1500, while that Lupot is worth $78,000. ...
It was just curiosity about what You can think You can reach, about the potential of Your approach.

The actual test will of course be the comparison with a traditional $1500 violin which is outstanding in its price class or at leas really good. But such a comparison would be unfair for an instrument under development.

And still: fascinating concept.

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Barry Guest
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Re: Experimental Violin Part Two

Post by Barry Guest »

Beate Ritzert wrote:
Barry Guest wrote:... you must consider that I will be selling the Violare for about $1500, while that Lupot is worth $78,000. ...
It was just curiosity about what You can think You can reach, about the potential of Your approach.

The actual test will of course be the comparison with a traditional $1500 violin which is outstanding in its price class or at leas really good. But such a comparison would be unfair for an instrument under development.

And still: fascinating concept.

And that is the motive behind this project Beate......to get outstanding but very affordable instruments into the hands of those who can't afford a Lupot.
Jason Rodgers wrote:I'm going to keep watching... my daughter came home from school yesterday after a presentation in music class about starting the strings program next year in 4th grade. She said she really likes the viola, so I may need to try my hand at one of these "flat tops."
Jason, after I finish #5 and have it tested and compared, I want to make a quartet. I think this concept will really suit the bigger instruments, especially the cello. It would be wonderful to see you make a viola in this design for your daughter.
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Barry Guest
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Re: Experimental Violin Part Two

Post by Barry Guest »

........you and others might think about one thing that my tester commented on. I've never used one, but apparently the current design shoulder rests can't be attached to my design because it has no overhang.

It's curious that no violinist used shoulder rests before the 1930's when it was invented, now every player uses one. Obviously, if this design is to find favor with the current generation, a new shoulder rest design will be required.....something I hadn't thought of because I'm a mug player.
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Beate Ritzert
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Re: Experimental Violin Part Two

Post by Beate Ritzert »

Or a modification of the bottom which allows to use traditional shoulder rests...

Andy Beals
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Re: Experimental Violin Part Two

Post by Andy Beals »

This is very, very cool!

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Barry Guest
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Re: Experimental Violin Part Two

Post by Barry Guest »

Thanks Andy. The project is a bit stalled at the moment while we move house. However, when all settles down, the fifth prototype will be posted. Meanwhile, prototype #4 has been tested for frequency analysis by John McLennan. The two graphs show one test with the chinrest and one without.
Without Chin rest
Without Chin rest
With Chin rest
With Chin rest
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Gilbert Fredrickson
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Re: Experimental Violin Part Two

Post by Gilbert Fredrickson »

I have always liked a violin without corners. The center sound hole is so unconventional. There is a fellow in England who captured my interest with his "Infidel" violins without corners.

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