Fret leveling… not getting level?!

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John Damon
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Fret leveling… not getting level?!

Post by John Damon »

I’ve got a construction level with sandpaper glued to it, it is straight. My neck/fretboard are straight. But when I check the frets with my fret rocker, they are not 100% level- it seems every other checkspot is rocking. Is it from the neck bending as I fret level? Do I have magical powers that alleviate the bother of level frets? What am I doing wrong? All frets are being affected by the sanding beam, as verified by me with a magic marker line on each fret right before leveling. As I move the beam up and down I can watch the marker line evenly disappear. Help!
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Peter Wilcox
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Re: Fret leveling… not getting level?!

Post by Peter Wilcox »

Are the frets well seated, and not springing up when you take the level off? Does a fret rock across the entire width of the fret, or just in the center or the edges? If your fret rocker were a little convex, I can see it rocking on every fret, not every other fret, so I guess I'm at a loss too.
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John Damon
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Re: Fret leveling… not getting level?!

Post by John Damon »

They are seated. The fret rocker goes beyond the two outer frets. I can’t figure this out…
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Barry Daniels
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Re: Fret leveling… not getting level?!

Post by Barry Daniels »

I don't like fret rockers for leveling an entire fretboard. I only use them for finding one high fret on an otherwise straight neck.

Do you have an accurate straight edge? Not a ruler, but a real machinist's straightedge. An 18" long straightedge is perfect for guitar necks. I wouldn't touch a neck without one. This is what I am talking about:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/151441107417?h ... SwstxVITXf
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John Damon
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Re: Fret leveling… not getting level?!

Post by John Damon »

I string it up and note where it frets out or buzzes…
John Damon
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Re: Fret leveling… not getting level?!

Post by John Damon »

Maybe my fret rocker isn’t flat. I’ll check that when I get home
John Damon
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Re: Fret leveling… not getting level?!

Post by John Damon »

Nope, it’s not the fret rocker. I’m going to pull all of the frets and level the fretboard and refret the guitar. Start fresh.
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Barry Daniels
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Re: Fret leveling… not getting level?!

Post by Barry Daniels »

Whatever. I think you are barking up the wrong tree. You said your level was straight and it was hitting the top of ALL the frets. So do what I suggested before. Get rid of the fret rocker. It is not how you gauge the straightness of a fretboard. Get a real straightedge and look closely at your neck. You may already be good to go.
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Peter Wilcox
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Re: Fret leveling… not getting level?!

Post by Peter Wilcox »

John Damon wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 4:06 pm I string it up and note where it frets out or buzzes…
So are you saying you have strung it up, and with the appropriately set action some frets buzz?
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John Damon
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Re: Fret leveling… not getting level?!

Post by John Damon »

Yes. The nut is a bit low, but the buzzing happens on fretted notes too. I’m pulling the frets tomorrow to flatten and re-radius the fretboard.
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Peter Wilcox
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Re: Fret leveling… not getting level?!

Post by Peter Wilcox »

It seems to me that your action may be too low, or you haven't set enough relief into the neck. I assume you know that the neck shouldn't be straight, but have a slight concave bow called relief.
Maybe I can't fix it, but I can fix it so no one can fix it
John Damon
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Re: Fret leveling… not getting level?!

Post by John Damon »

I understand neck relief (I’m also a player), but for leveling the frets I’ve always gotten the neck straight first, then leveled. Is this not the way?
Barry Daniels,I’ve pulled the frets and the fretboard is not flat/straight. But I am going to get myself an 18” machinists straight edge.
John Damon
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Re: Fret leveling… not getting level?!

Post by John Damon »

Barry Daniels wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 3:17 pm I don't like fret rockers for leveling an entire fretboard. I only use them for finding one high fret on an otherwise straight neck.

Do you have an accurate straight edge? Not a ruler, but a real machinist's straightedge. An 18" long straightedge is perfect for guitar necks. I wouldn't touch a neck without one. This is what I am talking about:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/151441107417?h ... SwstxVITXf
I just ordered the straight edge you suggested, thank you for the tip. Thank you ALL for the tips! 😀
John Damon
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Re: Fret leveling… not getting level?!

Post by John Damon »

I’ve found a devious low spot. How I ever thought this was flat I’ll never know. There’s still finish on this area, the rest of the board is bare
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Peter Wilcox
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Re: Fret leveling… not getting level?!

Post by Peter Wilcox »

John Damon wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 8:32 am I understand neck relief (I’m also a player), but for leveling the frets I’ve always gotten the neck straight first, then leveled. Is this not the way?
Yes. If I'm using a single action truss rod I plane some relief into the fret board when there is no tension on the rod, then straighten the neck with the rod and level the neck and the frets. Then loosen or tighten the rod for the correct relief when it is under string tension. For a double action rod I make the fret board straight, as I can adjust it either way under string tension.

What type of guitar is that? It looks like the neck/body join is at the 16th fret.
Maybe I can't fix it, but I can fix it so no one can fix it
John Damon
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Re: Fret leveling… not getting level?!

Post by John Damon »

It is a baritone. I used bubinga for the neck and fretboard and padauk for sides and back. Padauk seems to like to split…
Clay Schaeffer
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Re: Fret leveling… not getting level?!

Post by Clay Schaeffer »

I once used a piece of Bubinga for a dulcimer fretboard that looked like that. I would plane it flat, leave it for a few hours and when I came back it would have warped. I did this several times and then gave up on it. The board had some internal tension that would twist the board and couldn't be planed out. I was glad I caught it before It was built into the instrument.
John Damon
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Re: Fret leveling… not getting level?!

Post by John Damon »

Interesting… and scary!
Bill Edison
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Re: Fret leveling… not getting level?!

Post by Bill Edison »

Hiho-

I know this is an old thread but something bugs me about most fret leveling videos, at least those I've watched/read, and instruction- most notably that a machined dead-flat piece of metal is often used and is the best way to level the frets. To my way of thinking, the frets should be
ground to the same radius as the fret board. If a straight edge is used for leveling, it's not making complete or uniform contact with the surface
being leveled, (check out the relatively narrow mark it leaves on the sand paper/file) even if it is moved across the frets only 3/8 or 1/2 inch at a time. This situation is compounded by the curvature of the bridge. For example,
do all TOM bridges use the same radius? If they do, is it safe to bet that the fretboard radius, especially on "kit" guitars, doesn't always match the bridge
radius? But at least the bridge string slots can be filed to remedy THAT particular situation (except for roller bridges), yes? Seems like a good way to proceed is with a sanding block with the same radius as the fretboard, at LEAST to finish things off. What happened here was that my high
E string would choke out as soon as I did a bend above about the 11th or 12th fret. Moving up one fret at a time, I kept doing the same bend until the
choke disappeared, identifying the current fret as a HIGH culprit, although the fret rocker said it was level. It finally dawned on me that the frets had been
uniformly MIS-leveled, and the bend was actually moving the string into what was a low spot in relation to where the bend began. I'm now thinking that using a sanding block with the correct radius should fix this. What am I missing?

thanks!
bill
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Barry Daniels
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Re: Fret leveling… not getting level?!

Post by Barry Daniels »

I level frets with an aluminum level turned on edge. I tried using a radius block once and it was a complete disaster.

The frets are not at the same radius as the fretboard because that would result in overly thin fret ends. If you think about it, the fret radius would theoretically be equal to the fretboard radius plus a small amount equal to the thickness of the frets. But in reality, you want a flat surface that is swept across the frets to end up with a good fret plane.

The problem with using a radius block to level the frets is that any slight turning of the block off the centerline axis of the fretboard will make the radius distorted and prevent a level plane. In order to work properly, the radius block would have to make contact with all the underlying frets completely across their entire width. That is really difficult if you are holding the block freehand. The only way to do this would be to mount the radius block in a jig that keeps it parallel during the stroke. I made a jig like this and it worked to a degree, but is really more work than is necessary. My advice is to just use a flat sanding beam and don't overthink it.

By the way, you shouldn't move the beam in increments of 1/4" or 3/8" across the frets or you will end up with facets. Move the beam smoothly back and forth over the curved surface trying to keep the beam parallel to the string path of each string. Since these paths are wider on one end you should sweep in a conical pattern.
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