Damaged goods

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Alan Carruth
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Damaged goods

Post by Alan Carruth »

I completed a pretty fancy guitar around the first of the year, and took it to a musical exhibition at the new League of NH Craftsmen's gallery a few days after stringing it up. At the reception for the show, about two weeks later, I saw that the instrument was very dry, so I gave them some money toward a good humidifier, and strongly urged them to get it the next day. They did, but it was not soon enough: a few days later I received an e-mail to tell me that the guitar had cracked. When I went to pick it up, I learned that the relative humidity had gone below 20%, and I suspect well below, since the weekend after the reception was the coldest we've had all winter. Outside of the crack in the top (from the bridge to the lower edge, just to the right of the end block) there was no permanent damage, but the guitar was dry enough that the well-quartered Indian rosewood back had gone about 1/4" _concave_ in the lower bout. The fret ends had started a bit, as had the fretboard inlays.

In their defence, I will say that this is a new facility, and the place they were in before simply didn't have this sort of problem: most likely the opposite, in fact. I took some time when I picked the instrument up to show them how the low humidity had effected other wooden objects in their collection, and they now do have proper humidification, so it's to be hoped that this situation won't come up in the future. They have assured me that they'll 'make it right'.

I've spent the last couple of weeks getting the instrument properly humidified, and, as hoped, the crack went back together nicely. I worked in some hot glue, and studded it inside yesterday. It went back together level, but I'll need to do some finish touch-up in the area, and it will still show as a slightly darker line. I don't expect it will be a problem in the future, so long as the R.H. doesn't go lower than 25% or so. I've had good humidity control in my shop for a long time, and have not had anything like this happen in fifteen or twenty years: this was clearly a case of abuse.

The only way to make this repair 'go away' would be to replace the top entirely. I put a _lot_ of time into the rosette (a braid with paua abalam background), and I'm not sure I could get it out in one piece to put into a new top. It has paua abalam around the edge as well, which would be lost if I replaced the top, My feeling is that a rebuild would take so much time that it would not really pay.

The question I want to ask is: how much should I reduce the price of the guitar? I'd like to get some feedback from the community, so that I'll have some idea what sort of a number to give the folks at the League. I'll see if I can get some pics to post over the next few days, if that would help.

Alan Carruth / Luthier
Douglas Ingram
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Re: Damaged goods

Post by Douglas Ingram »

I'm sad to hear of this, Alan. You'd expect that an organization such as this would have already been well informed and prepared for the care of wooden craft objects under these conditions.

Does anybody's insurance cover this sort of situation? Given that you've exhibited with them before, albeit in a different building, how much awareness of the risk were you aware of?

I can't offer any hard value on the degree of devaluation, but I'd expect that it is now in the "used" category of pricing and has to be sold "as is". I'm sure that someone, somewhere, will find it a good value them. I wish you all the best.
I may be crazy...but I'm not insane.
Simon Magennis
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Re: Damaged goods

Post by Simon Magennis »

Really sorry to hear about that. I also have no practical experience in this. So this is pure conjecture. If I were guessing I'd say you'd have to reckon with something between 25% and 40% depreciation. But I would say it also depends on how nice the guitar sounds to a potential buyer. Someone who really like the looks and the sound might be happy with a lower discount (15%) along with your re-assurances. I think it is partly whether its going to be sold direct or through a dealer.
Clay Schaeffer
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Re: Damaged goods

Post by Clay Schaeffer »

For a "fancy" instrument where looks are almost as important as sound, that is otherwise "new", I would consider it to have lost 1/2 it's value. If it was a Plain Jane model I would say a minimum of 25% reduction in price.
If it was an antique instrument it probably wouldn't take as bad a hit.
Mario Proulx
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Re: Damaged goods

Post by Mario Proulx »

I'd call it a total loss. Really. It was brand new, and can never be sold as new again, and nobody buys damaged "fancy" instruments. Plus, and this is the biggie, you don't want that instrument "out" in public, unless you're there to 'defend' it. Thereby, in effect, it cannot be sold, or even used a s a display model. And since the time needed to properly replace the damaged items outweighs the value of "saving" the non-damaged parts, it's a total loss.

Anyone who's ever had a new car or truck written-off after what seemed like a rather minor accident will understand.
Michael Lewis
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Re: Damaged goods

Post by Michael Lewis »

Alan, let me suggest you put a new top on, and inlay the whole rosette as one piece, wood and all. When you are done you will know what it cost in materials and time. I have a suspicion the folks from the building are thinking of rather low numbers, 'after all, it is only a crack, and it was glued'. As you work on it you will know you are doing the right thing to put your best product out there. Or, if you are confident of the repair holding up then you can sell the instrument for whatever you can get for it and move on. I doubt you will be made whole on this but we can hope.

Transferring the rosette should be fairly easy I think, if it has a clean outer purfling line. Do you have a pic of it? I would start by cutting the rosette out and cleaning up the outer edge, then thickness sanding the underside of it and to be inlaid as one piece into the new top.
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Dave Anderson
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Re: Damaged goods

Post by Dave Anderson »

I would think you need to replace the top before selling it. You don't want a repaired fancy guitar out there receiving
bad reviews for the repair evidence(dark line)on the top. I'm glad they are going to make it right for you .
They should have known better! Sorry this happened.
Ron Belanger
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Re: Damaged goods

Post by Ron Belanger »

Initially, I thought 25 or 39 percent discount should be fair. But giving it a bit more thought I feel a top replacement is in order.
Clay Schaeffer
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Re: Damaged goods

Post by Clay Schaeffer »

Most instruments will eventually develop a crack . I think guitars are especially prone to this. We hope that it doesn't happen for many years, but inevitably it gets left in a car trunk or next to a heat duct or some other place with extreme humidity. Building a responsive guitar is a balancing act, and sometimes the scales tip the wrong way.
A well repaired crack in a new instrument might be a fatal flaw for some, for others it is simply a bargaining point. The first handmade guitar I bought had it's price reduced 20% because of a slight ding in the cedar top. The price reduction made it possible for me to buy a guitar that was otherwise out of my price range. The seller may have been as interested in getting the guitar into the hands of a young player, as in moving damaged goods, and we were both happy with the deal.
I know the guitar will take a big hit because of the repaired crack, but I think replacing the top is kind of like doing a face transplant when a "nose job" would do.
Alan Carruth
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Re: Damaged goods

Post by Alan Carruth »

I went 'round and 'round on whether to replace the top. I know it's ultimately trhe best thing to do, and, of course, it's still an option. I had hoped the crack would be less visible than it is, which would make it a little easier to sell.

Here's a pic of the crack as it was when I got the guitar back.

Alan Carruth / Luthier
Attachments
crack.jpg
Alan Carruth
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Re: Damaged goods

Post by Alan Carruth »

...and here's a pic of it now.

Alan Carruth / Luthier
Attachments
fixed.jpg
Alan Carruth
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Re: Damaged goods

Post by Alan Carruth »

As Dante said: "The closer a thing is to perfection, the more it feels of pleasure or of pain" (Chiardi translation). If this were not such a nice guitar, it would not matter so much. *sigh*

I, too, would have thought these folks would know better: this is one of the oldest craft organizations in the country, and they do have a permanent collection that includes wooden objects. Their old headquarters, however, was a farm house that was falling in pieces, and if it had any problems with humidity I'd expect they'd have been from too much, rather than too little. The new place is in a brand-new office building, with hot air heat (and the input is in the exhibit room), plus radiant heat from the floors, and nice big sunny windows. It's such a big change in a thing they'd never had to think about before that I can understand why it slipped by. OTOH, another luthier, who has been in the new HQ before, refused to place an instrument in this show, citing humidity problems, and I told them when I left it off that 'if they were comfprtable with the humidity, the guitar would be'. As it turns out, they were _not_ comfortable, by a long shot, but never made the connection. Now they know, but that's not much help in the immediate situation.

Thanks for the input. I'm mostly trying to get a reading on the damage I should assess from them. At this point, the top replacement looks more and more like the way to go. I've done it before, and would have liked to avoid it if possible, but it looks like the best way for me, and the cheapest, in the long run, for them.

Alan Carruth / Luthier
Louie Atienza
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Re: Damaged goods

Post by Louie Atienza »

Alan, if you send it to my house, I promise to keep it fed with the proper humidity, and never let it out in the public! :D

Anyways, glad to see there's light at the end of this tunnel...
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Woodrow Brackett
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Re: Damaged goods

Post by Woodrow Brackett »

Mario Proulx wrote:I'd call it a total loss..................................................................................................................................................

I agree, or re used the neck. I suppose replacing the top is an option, but it would probably be less work, and possibly not much more in materials to replace the whole body.
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Clay Schaeffer
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Re: Damaged goods

Post by Clay Schaeffer »

If this guitar was brought in for repair, who among us would recommend that it be retopped rather than the crack repaired? I think it is the peculiar circumstances of the injury, and the perception that it must be made "new" again, that leads to that conclusion. Retopping might be the most feasible solution to maintain the monetary value of the instrument, but I doubt that it will make it sound one whit better. It is unfortunate that the existing work and materials will be lost and only money supplied to replace them.
Michael Lewis
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Re: Damaged goods

Post by Michael Lewis »

Alan, do you still have some of the same top wood? If you get your intent sufficiently focused and hold your mouth just right you might be able to repair the crack with veneer of the same wood and make it virtually invisible. I think the repair is worth a try, and if it doesn't work out you can put a new top on it. There are people that do stuff like this on a regular basis so we know it can be done.<G> If the repair works it is a much less expensive problem in both time and money. I think it is worth making a sincere effort to try for the least expensive repair for the 'culprits' and to save your original work. You know the cosmetic condition you need to achieve, make it so by doing the repair if you can, otherwise put a new top on the guitar. The cosmetic result should be much the same either way if done well. That which doesn't kill us is likely to make us stronger, wiser too.
Clay Schaeffer
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Re: Damaged goods

Post by Clay Schaeffer »

As Michael mentions there are people who can make repairs disappear. Those who specialize in repair often do a better job of it than those who build new instruments. If you sent the repair out you would not only have the work done by an expert in that field, but also a bill to present to the culpable party.
Mario Proulx
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Re: Damaged goods

Post by Mario Proulx »

Even the best repair is still a repair! How many of you would pay full price for a NEW car that has been wrecked and repaired???

If the guitar was even a few months old and owned by someone, yes, repair. But it's brand new, and has never even been sold.

No. Question. About. It.
Darryl Young
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Re: Damaged goods

Post by Darryl Young »

While I'm not a professional luthier, the problem is after repairing selling the instrument as "New" condition. Like Mario, I wouldn't want to pay full price for a repaired instrument and it would seem misleading to represent a repaired instrument as new.

Now if it wasn't new (already owned by someone), then the impact to value isn't the issue (that damage is already done)......it's getting the instrument repaired where it's playable with as little impact as possible. If you are in the business of selling used instruments, that's another story........but you can probably only sell used instruments for roughly half of new cost which means you need to purchase that instrument for about 1/4th of new cost to stay in business. I'm guessing Allen would loose money selling to a used dealer at 1/4th the cost of a new instrument.

If he retops, seems he would need compensated for the cost of the original top/materials, the labor in building/tuning/assembling the original top, the cost of the new top/materials, the labor to build/tune/assemble/finish the new top. If he is just compensated for the replacing the top, he isn't comensated for his original labor loss which is significant.
Alan Carruth
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Re: Damaged goods

Post by Alan Carruth »

Back when I did more repair work I used to be able to make something like this 'go away'. However, it was still repaired, and, in this case, that would constitute a big liability. So, re-top it is. I just needed somebody to talk me into doing what I knew I should have done in the first place...

Alan Carruth / Luthier
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