Purpose of bridge pins?

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Chuck Tweedy
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Re: Purpose of bridge pins?

Post by Chuck Tweedy »

I don't know why one would pull up from the back, as there seems to be no rotational force from that (or any) direction.
You are not seeing the effect of the torque (AKA rotational force) because a 2x4 does not deform (strain) enough to see it.
A guitar top - however - does.
The torque is there and it is significant.

What you have shown is that the "sandwiching" force of the stings overcomes the tipping force of the torque for rigid bodies. That is not surprising (at least to me - not trying to be obnoxious there).
On a guitar top, the torque causes the top to potato-chip, and the back edge of the bridge peels off the top. This deformation gets worse and worse over time since wood will creep with constant force.
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Erik Hokanson
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Re: Purpose of bridge pins?

Post by Erik Hokanson »

So why then is the popped bridge such a common repair?
I took a class in building from George Morris in Vermont and if I understand him correctly, he recommends building pinned bridge guitars by gluing up the top bracing flat. No dome or barrel. Then carve the braces pretty light. Thenstringntension will pull the top into a slight dome due to the rotation of the bridge. I made that guitar about ten years ago and it's lovely. Although I detect the bridge pulling up a little in the corner which is entirely my fault.
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Mark Swanson
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Re: Purpose of bridge pins?

Post by Mark Swanson »

Also, gluing a small piece of wood in front to hold an unglued bridge in its position (as you did with the two screws) wouldn't work either because all of the forward force would be on that thin glue joint. It would fail.
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Chuck Tweedy
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Re: Purpose of bridge pins?

Post by Chuck Tweedy »

So why then is the popped bridge such a common repair?
Because...
On a guitar top, the torque causes the top to potato-chip, and the back edge of the bridge peels off the top.
This process starts at the back corners of the bridge wings, and is can just keep peeling over time.
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Peter Wilcox
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Re: Purpose of bridge pins?

Post by Peter Wilcox »

Chuck Tweedy wrote:
I don't know why one would pull up from the back, as there seems to be no rotational force from that (or any) direction.
You are not seeing the effect of the torque (AKA rotational force) because a 2x4 does not deform (strain) enough to see it.
A guitar top - however - does.
The torque is there and it is significant.

What you have shown is that the "sandwiching" force of the stings overcomes the tipping force of the torque for rigid bodies. That is not surprising (at least to me - not trying to be obnoxious there).
On a guitar top, the torque causes the top to potato-chip, and the back edge of the bridge peels off the top. This deformation gets worse and worse over time since wood will creep with constant force.
I know the torque is there - so basically it is the torque on the guitar top that causes the glue joint to fail, not any torque on the bridge. Optimally then, the glued-down bridge is another brace that attempts to keep the top from doming behind it, and when the glue joint fails the bridge pulls forward and tips forward following the line of string tension between the pin hole exiting from the top, and the saddle. I would think then that the pins could also play an important part, at least in a failing (or non existent) glue joint, in keeping the bridge from pulling forward toward the nut.

So possibly the pins could replace the screw stops in my model - I'll give it a try.
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David Malicky
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Re: Purpose of bridge pins?

Post by David Malicky »

Below are two "free-body diagrams" of 2 pinned bridges, to help understand the effect the various forces and assumptions. For both, the "free-body" is defined as including the bridge, saddle, most of the pins, and bit of string between the saddle and the bottom of the bridge (since all these are inside the free body, any forces inside them are internal and don't show up on the diagram). The free-body does not include any of the top, or the bit of string and ball-end below the bottom surface of the bridge.

I assumed that the string tension force is the same at both ends; I think this is fairly reasonable after the guitar has been played a while, but it isn't a critical assumption.

The left diagram shows the forces that would occur if everything were perfectly rigid. The string tension tries to tip the bridge counterclockwise; this concentrates a compression force on the front edge (Nfront). To understand whether the bridge could tip or not without glue (but with a shear stop), first set Nrear=0, then look at the clockwise and counterclockwise torques acting around the black dot at the bottom left:
Clockwise torques = T*b (Nfront and Shear go right through the black dot, and we're not relying on Nrear at all)
Counterclockwise torques = T*h.
So it will tip if T*h > T*b, or if h > b. Nice and simple!

Unfortunately, as Chuck noted, a real bridge, top, and bridge plate are not rigid -- they flex. The right diagram is much more complex, with the surface forces replaced by unknown pressure distributions (the diagram shows linear but that's a simplification). Of particular importance is the new force in blue: "R", which I just thought of tonight while making the diagrams. To understand R, first go back to the rigid case and think about the string's ball-end force that is applied to the bottom of the bridgeplate (not in the diagrams): this force would be reacted all the way around to Nfront and Nrear, which is dandy to prevent tipping. But with a flexible bridgeplate, most of that ball-end force applied to the plate would be reacted right back through the plate and top to the bridge, just in front of each pin hole. So, R*b mostly cancels the benefit of T*b holding the bridge down. Bummer. From this, it would appear that pinned bridges probably only have a small advantage over pinless, as far as tip prevention goes.

Image

If the origin of "R" seems fuzzy, think of some sheetmetal with a hole, a bolt through the hole, and a nut on the other side. Now tighten the bolt and nut to (pointlessly) clamp the sheetmetal. The bolt shaft is in tension (like the string), the nut below the sheetmetal is pushing on the bottom of the sheetmetal (like the ball-end). That nut force is transmitted right through the sheetmetal to the head of the bolt. Unless the sheetmetal is inches thick, that compressive reaction force is very localized around the bolt shaft itself. Similarly, unless the bridgeplate is very thick, most of the ball-end force will be transmitted back to the bridge via a small spot by the pin hole.
Rodger Knox
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Re: Purpose of bridge pins?

Post by Rodger Knox »

There's a bit of a problem here I believe. Using the screws as stops raises the point of rotation of the bridge from the bottom of the bridge to the top of the screws. That's not a big difference, but it's enough to invalidate the conclusion that there is no rotational force on the bridge.
I'm also of the opinion that there is very little, if any, rotational force on the bridge if it is "properly constructed". The context of "properly constructed" here is that it minimizes rotational force on the bridge, which may or may not have anything to do with proper construction in the real world. Good tone may come from maximizing the rotational force on the bridge. As Barry pointed out, there's lots of bridges that lift on the back edge, so obviously there CAN be some rotational force. I think your experiment shows that there doesn't HAVE to be a rotational force, it appears that the saddle is vertical in you test rig. I believe angleing the saddle back a bit would compensate for raising the point of rotation. I suspect Mr.Carruth has a much more educated opinion on this subject.

Edit: Several post while I was typing, I'm getting old and slow... :roll:
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Barry Daniels
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Re: Purpose of bridge pins?

Post by Barry Daniels »

There will always be rotational force when the last point of string contact is cantilevered some distance above the neutral plane. The only way to get rid of the rotational force would be to anchor the strings to a tailpiece.

I think too much credit is being given to the ball ends anchored on the bridge plate.
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Chuck Tweedy
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Re: Purpose of bridge pins?

Post by Chuck Tweedy »

Nice post David Malicky.
Makes me wonder - maybe I'm making my bridge plates too thin for long term stability!
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Rodger Knox
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Re: Purpose of bridge pins?

Post by Rodger Knox »

David makes some good points, but I believe there is a flaw in there also. The fact that a structure flexes a bit doesn't change it's analysis. It's true that the forces may change a bit with deformation, but there will be an equilibrium in the deflected shape that could be analyzed as a rigid body. The bolt through thin sheetmetal is not a reasonable analogy, the force on the bridge does cause the top to deflect more than just next to the bridge.
Barry is obviously correct about the rotational force on the top. So how much of this force is transmitted by the glue joint? With a pinless bridge, all of it. With a pinned bridge, I'm not so sure. I'll see if I'm up to doing a decent analysis before offering any more opinions. :D
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Barry Daniels
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Re: Purpose of bridge pins?

Post by Barry Daniels »

A simple static engineering model of this would show that the string is anchored and ends at the tip of the saddle and the ball end and bridge plate play no part. That would be an over-simplification but it may be closer to what is actually happening.
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Peter Wilcox
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Re: Purpose of bridge pins?

Post by Peter Wilcox »

FWIW, I inserted bridge pins and removed the screws. There was a slight shift forward, and a slight rotation of the rear of the bridge upwards, both in the 0.5mm range. I think most if not all of this is due to the loose fit of the pins in the lower holes, as the pins are tapered and the holes are not. The apparent side gap is not real - it is due to mismatch of the lower bridge surface to the upper plank surface, which is not very flat on that edge - the bridge is firmly affixed at its anterior aspect over most of its width. So it looks like the pins themselves act as stops against the bridge sliding forward.

I'm trying to understand the vector analysis of David Malicky, but it will take awhile - it's been about 45 years. Anyway, thanks for that and all the interesting comments.
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Alan Carruth
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Re: Purpose of bridge pins?

Post by Alan Carruth »

That up force is pretty simply explained: the break angle over the saddle yields a resultant force along the bisector of the angle, which resolves into a vertical downward force on the top of the saddle, and a tipping force pulling the saddle top toward the nut. The downward force has to be balanced by an upward force someplace; say, at the pins. The result is the torque on the bridge, which acts through a 'centroid'. the location of which seems to depend on the break angle, according to my measurements. These forces should be pretty much the same on pinned or pinless bridges; on a tailpiece setup the tension and up forces act on the tailpiece anchor. I've got a vector diagram of this, but I need to figure out how to paste it into this window.

From what I've seen, if the top were flexible but not stretchy (say, something like Mylar) what you'd tend to see would be the string trying to make a straight line between the nut and the upper edge of the lower block. The bridge would form a 'kink' in the string, with the afore mentioned up and down forces on the bridge and saddle working against the tension/stiffness of the top.

Peter: try using a thin piece of wood for the 'top', and gluing a 'bridge' onto it partway up. That will be more realistic.

As for doing a listening test with the pins removed: I'd cover the holes with tape to cut down on the air flow. Admittedly, this would probably be a small affect on the sound, but it could be audible.

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David Malicky
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Re: Purpose of bridge pins?

Post by David Malicky »

To clarify a few things, as Barry noted, there is always a torque (rotational force) on the bridge, unless a tailpiece is used. As Alan found, the only thing that affects the torque is the height of the strings off the soundboard. A free-body diagram of a pinless bridge (below) shows these effects clearly--the only input is the string tension; everything else is reactions. Issues like construction techniques, saddle angle, etc., do affect the stresses inside the bridge and at the glue joint, but not the overall torque.

Image

The flex of the structure does change the reaction stresses at the bottom of the bridge. Flex does not change the overall torque, or the deflected shape of the soundboard fore/aft of the bridge. The sheetmetal and bolt analogy is only to illustrate the origin of the "R" force, not to simulate an overall bridge.

Peter, I think it's great you're doing experiments. As a guess, I'd say your "bridgeplate" thickness is stiff enough to be roughly in between the rigid and flexible cases. Your observation that the bridge rotates slightly up at the rear is important as it does two things: it concentrates the the compressive reaction at the front edge of the bridge, and it eliminates or reduces the "R" force. Both of those prevent the bridge from rotating further. So, if the glue was failing on the tail side of a pinned bridge, we would expect the bridge to rotate (rotation by peeling off, not bending of the top) some amount and then stabilize. That is, if it rotates enough that the gap extends to the bridge pin hole area, then "R" must be zero (!), and the string tension will easily stop the rotation. In practice, the gap doesn't need to extend all the way through the pin hole area, since the "b" dimension is typically ~two times "h", and so we only need to reduce "R", not eliminate it, to stabilize the rotation/peeling.

Just saw your last post, Alan--will respond later. By "up force", are you referring to "R"?
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Peter Wilcox
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Re: Purpose of bridge pins?

Post by Peter Wilcox »

The take home lesson from this for me is that there will be no catastrophic failure of a pinned bridge. Though it may peel up slightly from the tail side, it will stabilize and not tear off, as would a pinless steel string or classical tied bridge. That is comforting.

And the pins do serve the function of stopping the bridge from moving forward should the glue fail.
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Alan Carruth
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Re: Purpose of bridge pins?

Post by Alan Carruth »

Dave Malicky asked:
"Just saw your last post, Alan--will respond later. By "up force", are you referring to "R"?"

Yes, or, at least, I think so. I'd have he tail of the arrow art the top surface of the bridge, rather than the bottom. Can't say much more now: kinda busy...

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Jeff Highland
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Re: Purpose of bridge pins?

Post by Jeff Highland »

Peter Wilcox wrote:The take home lesson from this for me is that there will be no catastrophic failure of a pinned bridge. Though it may peel up slightly from the tail side, it will stabilize and not tear off, as would a pinless steel string or classical tied bridge. That is comforting.

And the pins do serve the function of stopping the bridge from moving forward should the glue fail.
I had a 12 string bridge that did exactly this, slid forward about a mm until the pins took the load in shear and rotational force was resisted by the ball ends on the bridge plate.
Rodger Knox
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Re: Purpose of bridge pins?

Post by Rodger Knox »

I've done my best to come up with a satisfactory engineering analysis, and I've come to two conclusions:

1. String tension results in elastic compression of the top in front of the bridge and elastic tension of the top behind the bridge. The displacement of the bridge due to this is approoximately 0.003", using medium strings and average stiffnes sitka spruce 0.10" thick.

2. The rotational displacement of the bridge is beyond my capability. The assumptions necessary to simplify the system enough to allow analysis are not adequately satisfied for the results to have enough accuracy to have any real meaning.

One thing I observed in my attempt is that the deflected shape of the top is a horizontal S, with a dip in front of the bridge and a hump behind it. Since the top is likely more flexible than the bridge, the curvature would result in compression on the glue joint along the front of the bridge and tension on the glue joint along the back of the bridge. This would explain bridges beginning to lift along the back edge. On the other hand, the bridge plate should stiffen the top enough so that the curvature does not begin under the bridge, unless the bridge extends beyond the bridge plate.
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Peter Wilcox
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Re: Purpose of bridge pins?

Post by Peter Wilcox »

I made a model of a bridge on a thin piece of wood, to emulate the top. Of course, this has nothing to do with a real top, which has width, bracing, a sound hole, fingerboard extension and 6 strings. It does seem to show that the major torque causes a down bow several inches in front of the bridge, without a seeming compensatory up bow behind it, but I'd guess this is due to lack of bracing, which in a guitar top would transfer the force toward the tail. The bridge (which is not glued) does pull off slightly in the rear as before. The bridge plate is glued to the "top."

The pin holes are tapered, and the pins do act as stops to keep the bridge from sliding forward.
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Peter Wilcox
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Re: Purpose of bridge pins?

Post by Peter Wilcox »

More pics.
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