When do you decide to simply buy an instrument?

[Matthew Lau]

Dear MIMF,

In the past, when I wanted an instrument, I looked into building it.
Even when the instrument was half-baked, I found it better than most of what I could afford.
(An exception, I bought a late 70's Tokai made Strat for way less than the cost of parts).

Is there a point where you decide to simply buy an instrument?

Looking at my limited time (and very limited skills), I'm really tempted to just buy a decent classical.
However, I have a set of Camatillo RW and German Spruce sitting in the closet...in the form of a botched guitar that's begging to be remade.

[Mario Proulx]

Are you seeking an honest answer, or encouragement?

Just build it...

[Simon Magennis]

+1 for Mario.

Unless you have lots of woodworking experience and a reasonable workspace and suitable tools, buying will always be much cheaper than building for any given quality of instrument.

Building is addictive too. So if your prime motivation is a good or very good instrument for playing, buy now for $2k to $6k and forget about building - you'll save yourself years.

I can't say about electrics but for a classical I'd guess you need 2,000 hours and $4k-$10k before you get to a point where some of you instruments are genuinely "good" in most aspects. Double or triple it before you get consistently good instruments and add some more for routinely getting what you are aiming for. Once the instruments are past the expensive firewood stage then your get some of your money investment back but the time is gone.

The traditional 3-5 year apprenticeship follow by a few years as a "journeyman" gaining experience follow by a working to produce a "masterpiece" to get your masters authorization in order to be allowed set up on your own does give an indication of how long it takes to get really good at the skills needed.

This 7-10 year training scheme is still used in Germany for many practical jobs. You still occasionally see people, particularly carpenters, who take the "journeyman" bit seriously in the traditional sense and walk from one village in Germany to another, in traditional clothes, after their apprenticeship getting work with the local master carpenters to gain experience. I saw one a few weeks back when we visited my wife's family.

[Clay Schaeffer]

Hi Matthew,
Buying and playing a fine quality guitar is something I doubt you will regret. It will show you what is possible to achieve and give you a standard to work toward, if you continue with your lutherie endeavors .
Remaking the "botched" guitar is something you can do as time and inclination allow. If you are pursuing guitar making as a hobby, do it in a relaxed manner and for enjoyment. Don't stress about perfecting your first instruments, but always try to make the next one better. Robert Bouchet, the French painter and pedagogue, pursued guitar making as an avocation, and became as famous for his guitars as for his paintings.

[Matthew Lau]

Actually, I'm just seeking an honest answer.

I'm already set on salvaging my botched instrument as an experimental "beater."
It actually sounds really nice, but the neck was done badly.
I can easily picture taking the thing apart and rebuilding it (thank god for hide glue).

However, I'm trying to figure out where to draw the line.
It's interesting to think that Rick Turner plays his Howe-Ornes and Ramirez.
I'm sure that other luthiers buy/collect other famous instruments too.

I'm just honestly curious about what, and for what reason.
In my case, I may look into buying a great classical...maybe a Byers or a Kohno.
However, I'll have to wait a good ten years or so (after buying a practice, establishing it, more training, etc).

[Andy Birko]

For me it's just a calculus of time and priority. e.g. I build banduras. You can't buy good banduras because there aren't any. I needed an electric bass for a band. I could have built one in a few months time but, I had the cash and building it would have put bandura building on the back burner (and it already takes me too long to finish a bandura) so I just bought it.

If timing isn't an issue, go ahead and build. If you need it today - buy. If it's something you can't buy, build.

[Clay Schaeffer]

"You can't buy good banduras because there aren't any."
Does this apply to banjos as well? <g>

[Jim McConkey]

It is a tradeoff, and the tradeoff parameters are very personal. When I wanted an octave mandolin/cittern/bouzouki, I quickly found that even the low-end models were relatively expensive and not all that good. Unlike Simon's experience, my first attempt at one FAR exceeded the quality of the cheaper commercial instruments at a fraction of the cost. Mine is not perfect, but easily compares to instruments going for several thousand dollars. I am very happy I built one. I still buy unusual folk instruments. I don't play fiddle, but my other half does. Fiddles of the quality she was looking for exceed my current abilities, so buying was the right decision. I am an electrical engineer by profession, and I used to build hardware and software synths for a living, but I will still opt to buy a commercial synth almost every time unless I want some very unique capabilities. I am capable of doing better, but these instruments have gotten so complicated it could easily consume my entire life for a year or more. So, it just depends. Weigh your time and capabilities against the cost and see how it works for you.

[Simon Magennis]

Actually my first instruments also exceeded my expectations but even after a bunch of instruments I am not in the Byers or Kohno league and it is unlikely that I ever will be at my current rate of building. In essence, if playing the reason for thinking about building and you are aiming at the Byers/Kohno league then buy. Don't wait ten years. Get it now.

When you say "buy a practice" I assume that means medical which implies future decent income. Compared to setting up/buying a practice this is absolute chickenfeed. If you shop carefully I guess you can get a good used instrument in this category for 3.5k to 6.0k depending on where and when you buy, and a top class used instrument from a less well known but eminently good builder for 2k-3k. A fancy coffee at Starbucks or similar is $3-$5 as far as I know. One a day is 1k-1.5k a year. Not being in the first flush of youth any more myself, I think it is important to "just do it" - either or both of us might not be here in 10 years. Sorry to put a morbid tone on it.

[Paul E Buerk]

I needed to have a 4 string bass as a backup for gigging. After putting together a rough Bill Of Materials for a bass that I considered to be just OK, it ended up being more expensive than just buying a cheap low-end bass. Purchased a decent Ibanez for less than $250 and it works well for Open Mic's, practice, and anywhere that I don't want my good bass to get lost/stolen/damaged.

[Matthew Lau]

Simon,

I honestly doubt that I'll ever get as good as Byers or Kohno (or Carutther or Proulx, etc).
Rather, the wait time is just a simple matter of delayed gratification and asset allocation.

If I save now, I can buy a dental practice earlier.
I can create a foundation for better quality control, and a place to treat my patients honestly and in a slightly impractical manner.
Restorations that last 20+ years aren't good for business, but I feel that it's the right thing to do.
I'll need a ton of training, specialized equipment, and the right staff and location...which will require a lot of money.

While I love a well made instrument, my greatest passion is for my patients.

After ten years, I hope to be in a position to indulge in other passions.

[Matthew Lau]

Btw, thanks for all the input!

It's helped me crystallize my criteria and priorities.

[Dana Emery]

I am now 63. When I was a teenager, livin in NYC, I had an apartment workbench shop that built nice ship models, but not musical instruments. I had a purchased classical guitar and was exploring flamenco, classical, and folk music. Banjo was an interest, and I spotted a nice head in a pawn shop, bought it, and then discovered an obscure luthiers supply in the east village, where I bought a blank long-neck (pete seegar), and some fretwire.

Several decades later I got around to fitting the neck to the head, adding a fingerboard, and hand-fitting frets. I messed up in several details, it looks ok, but has too much arch in the neck and rather peculiar temperament. Other work has priority just now, someday I will go back to it.

You buy when you need and can afford. Assuming you are an amateur builder, you have to face the reality of inexperience limiting your success in building.

[Andy Birko]

"You can't buy good banduras because there aren't any."
Does this apply to banjos as well? <g>

So I'm driving down the road the other day and I see an accordion and a banjo on the side of the road and I'm thinking which do I run over first? "Business before pleasure" I decided as I veered toward the accordion.

[Clay Schaeffer]

<g>

[Aaron Helt]

I've built... and I've bought. Can't picture a world without both!

[Thomas Dooher]

I bought an old Yamaha FG312 a while back, somewhat for nostalgic reasons, and the fact that it's taking me way too long to work on what I have already, and I probably would not get to doing a 12'er for years. Some you build, some you buy...

[Mattia Valente]

Honestly? If I just wanted a really great acoustic guitar or two, the best option would have been to simply spend a few thousand on it. Instead, I've chosen to spend a large multiple of that on tooling and materials for a large multiple of that number of guitars. More fun? Yes. Cost-effective way of getting a great guitar? No.

[Woodrow Brackett]

....................................................................................................................................................................................
Is there a point where you decide to simply buy an instrument?

Looking at my limited time (and very limited skills), I'm really tempted to just buy a decent classical..................................................................

You've got to make your own decision. If I wanted a classical I'd either buy one, or try to find a classical builder who wanted a steel string, and work out some kind of swap. I know just enough about Classicals to know that I'd have to build several to figure out how to build a good one.

[Mario Proulx]

Cost-effective way of getting a great guitar? No.

I won't agree with that statement. I built my first mandolins because when I decided to learn to play one and went shopping, I discovered that good mandolins weren't cheap, and cheap mandolins weren't good. So I built one. My investment in tooling? A ten dollar yard sale jigsaw. And I still have it, and use it for every guitar I build(to rough-cut the bridge pin slots).

After two mandolins, I decided to try a guitar. I already owned a really fine sounding and playing Gibson J-45 at that point, but my growing interest in Bluegrass music had me longing for a Collings "Clarence White" model, but there was no way I could ever afford one. So I built my own take on it. I still have, and play, that guitar. It plays and sounds as fine as anything I've built since, and is actually the guitar that "launched" my career! Everyone who heard it wanted one. The first time I realized I had something special was at a large BG jam, where there were 4-5 informal "groups" jamming, spread out in a large hall(there was a BG concert(The[very young] Gibson Brothers, in fact) that evening, and the hosts put-on an afternoon "pre-show jam". At one point, this fella comes walking toward the group I was jamming with and said "where's this guitar I'm hearing?? Someone's got a guitar here that's cutting-through the whole damn room!!". Everyone turned and pointed to me...!

My tooling investment at this point? Maybe another $20 for a small Stanley plane(still have it) and a cheap rasp to help with neck carving. I borrowed some time on a friend's thickness sander to thickness the top, back and sides, and improvised all sorts of stuff for clamps.

Point being, we don't --need-- tons of tools to build an instrument, and we don't all have to build dozens of instruments before we manage to build one that's as good or better than even a high-end factory's offerings.

That said, when it came time for me to acquire an upright bass, I traded a guitar for a 1953 Kay... While I have no doubt I could build one that's as good or better, I had to draw the line somewhere! <lol> I also own a 1951 Martin 000-18 that I took in trade for a mandolin. It's not near as loud, clear, crisp, rich, etc..., as anything I build, but ya know, there's something just plain funky-cool about old instruments, and this one has become my favorite "first tune with my first cup of coffee of the day" guitar. Its simple, somewhat quiet voice just plain works well on fresh ears, and its light weight and wonderful neck(which I will copy for my next "keeper"!) are a delight.

Bottom line: build what you want to/can, buy what you can't/won't.