General Finishes Waterbase Topcoat - SM is pushing this - anyone tried it?

[Mike Conner]

Chuck,
My shop is a walk out basement but unheated - chilly this time of year, maybe lower 60's F
So I hang the body and neck in the shop to apply the finish. After the coats are done for the day and the finish is handle-able (about 45 min) I move them to a room temperature bathroom and hang from the shower rod. Probably 72 F in the winter.

After all the coats are on, then I hang the parts back in the bathroom for the 5 day wait. So, no extra heating.

In summer I have a door mounted fan to pull some conditioned air from the house. The finish does dry slightly slower when things are humid. With waterborne finish, especially spraying poly, this is not such a bad thing. I think it reduces flash drying to orange peel, and maybe a little more time to flow out before setting. But, I don't humidify my shop in the winter, and I can live with the environment the way it is.

I'll post some pictures this weekend. I want to get some more polishing done and need to re-assemble the guitar.
//mike

[Chuck Tweedy]

Awesome info Mike.
So ... 5 days at 72F and it is still easy to buff - that is great to know.
I think that is around the sweet spot where the finish has shrunk most of the way, but is still soft enough for the buffer to burnish.

[Mike Conner]

Chuck,
Yep, that seems to be the right interval. I do think the gloss so far is duller than it could be, and I definately have some spots to even out, etc. I am guessing that waiting a few more days after this initial sanding and buffing will let me get to the next level. I'll know by the weekend.
//mike

[Chuck Tweedy]

Me to - I'm glad I still have a month till I can deliver this guitar, so I still have a chance clean up some dull spots.
The good news is - I don't think you can "over-work" this finish. It is so tough (now that it is fully cured), that I have no problem attacking a dull spot with 2400 micromesh and working back up through the grits. There is no way I'm burning through.
Even the buffer - on nitro, if you so much as approach the wheel with the edge of the headstock it strips it off. No way with this stuff.

[Jason Rodgers]

This just looks awesome, Chuck, and I'll add to the appreciation for your thorough documentation of trials and errors (and successes, too, of course!). I'm going to sort through this thread and copy and paste the schedule into a Word doc for later reference.

[Mike Conner]

Chuck,
Some comments I should have posted earlier:
- It's fantastic that you have initiated this thread about the finishing and taken the time to detail the experience and results. This is what the forum is all about and it is very valuable to most of us!
- Your build quality and detail is way beyond where I am at right now. The purfling and binding details are especially world class to my eye, as is your selection and use of the materials. This definately gives me something to aspire to for the future.
Thanks again for sharing!
//mike

[Chuck Tweedy]

Mike, thanks for your kind words.
As for my documentation of this subject - if you check the original post, you will see that my initial intentions were purely selfish. I think I realized that this subject needs some attention after people piped in who were as trepidatious about trying waterborne finishes as I am (still - a bit).
Those of us who have used traditional finishes successfully, and are setup with the equipment, need serious motivation to stray. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it", right? Well, I'm not entrenched in nitro, and FP is "special", so I decided to help a brother out.
It was a bit risky to jump in with both feet on this rather fancy instrument, but I got the go-ahead from the shop (for some strange reason they trust me), and the tests were so profoundly successful I just went for it.

Yea, I sound all courageous don't I - you should have seen me crying like a baby on the shop floor in the fetal position when I could not buff out the finish the first time I tried.

[Randy Roberts]

Chuck,

I too want to thank you for all the extra effort that tracking and posting your learning curve with the product. That added a lot of thought and effort to what you were doing, but in turned gave any of us giving the stuff a try down the road a heck of a lot of head start. Awfully generous of you when your free "guitar time" must be pretty hard to come by to begin with.

I'd have to say though, that I think trying a new finish on a guitar as gorgeous as that one would be a pretty good definition of courage.

Thanks again.

[Chuck Tweedy]

Thanks Randy - time is going to get tighter here coming up - lacrosse season is starting.

[Chuck Tweedy]

Quick update on bringing the finish up to its full potential. This is for you Mike.
For a scratchy spot:
- Wetsand with Micro-mesh 3600 and 4000
- Follow with Novus 3 & 2
- Finish with Meguiar's #3 Mirror Glaze

That'll take any blue-haze off the surface. It is a bit of work. I'm having to do the entire back - it was just not right.

[Mike Conner]

Greg,
Thanks for the update (and really good timing).

Here's how the small archtop looks so far:

(sorry about the sideways - no idea how to fix that). It's a 14.25" full carved archtop guitar, using my Guitar Octave Mandolin body design and guitar neck, 23.5" scale. Front plate is Englemann, back, neck and rims are curly red maple with interesting mineral streaks.

There some scratchy areas, but more of the brush mark type longer divots where I needed to level sand more. I waited (after the 5 day initial rub out shown here) to see if there was any shrink back, etc. but I don't think there was. This is most pronounced on the front plate. Maybe not a big problem, but I want to get it better. (No blue or other haze that I can see).

Here is what I am using for sanding and polishing - automotive compounds. I don't have any micro mesh but really need to look into that.

I would have been thrilled to have the finish shown on my first builds, but now I really want to get closer to a professional level. (Some local pro musicians saw the guitar at a show last night, and they did not notice the finish flaws. They just liked the wood, and the playability of the smaller body size).

The setup strings are getting dead, so time to take it back apart and "finish the finish" before it cures so hard I'll need kryptonite compound to touch it.

[Mike Conner]

OK, so last night I disassembled the guitar for sanding and polishing. At this point, the finish has been curing for 12 days and the odor is nearly gone.

I went almost all the way back to the beginning, doing the entire body with each step:
- Wet sanded 600 grit to level out the brush marks and a couple of areas I had scraped flush with a razor blade. Used water with a drop of dish soap, just enough to lubricate.
- with the finish now leveled, I can go through the finer grits. 1200 grit wet removed the last traces of brush marks and scratches.
- 1500 grit, then 2000 grit wet created a dull luster
- Turtle wax rubbing compound. More shine than I got after the 5 day level and polish.
- Turtle wax swirl and scratch remover. Looking pretty good.
- Turtle wax polishing compound. Looks really good!

So, after 12 days I got a very good polish without too much trouble. The result has a deeper shine than the 5 day results - could this be partly due to removing more finish?

The next build is a 16" guitar using the same maple as the small archtop. rims are ready and I have started on the plates. On this one I am going to level sand and polish at 5 days, taking more time and care in sanding to remove the flaws. Then, after another 5 days, final polishing.

[Chuck Tweedy]

Mike, I would say that the result that can be seen at 5 days is going to be less than at 12 days (after full cure) because at 5 days the finish is not hard enough to take a really high gloss.
However, if we can get the finish flat, without deep scratches, and reasonably glossy at 5 days, then you should be able to let it cure and go back with just the finest-cut polishing compound and bring it all the way up.

You might have has some problems with the surface of your finish that benefitted from going all the way back to 600 - hard to say from here.

[Mike Conner]

Chuck,

Some lessons learned:
- Being more disciplined about removing the flaws at 600 grit, and then working through each grit (1200, 1500, 2000) with wet sanding definately made the polishing easier.
- It seems the schedule for me will be 5 day sand and polish, then final polish around 10 days total.
- Sanding and polishing at 12 days is achievable.
- I can get a satisfactory finish with water based Enduro-Var using foam brushes, easy to obtain sandpaper, a cheap 6" Ryobi buffer and automotive liquid compounds.

I hope this is encouraging for others who do not have the professional sprayers and polishing arbors. We can avoid the hazards of solvent finishes like nitro lacquer in a home shop environment.

[Jason Rodgers]

I hope this is encouraging for others who do not have the professional sprayers and polishing arbors. We can avoid the hazards of solvent finishes like nitro lacquer in a home shop environment.

Yes, yes it is.

[Mike Conner]

Chuck and others,
This thread has motivated me to rewrite the chapter in my Archtop Build Journal to update the method for Enduro-Var. I have excerpted the chapter pages and created a new thread here:
http://www.mimf.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4349

Of course, I am using foam brushes and a automotive buffer rather than spraying and pro level buffing arbors. Perhaps you would be willing to consolidate and compile your methods too? There is a lot of really useful information throughout this thread and it could be a good reference for anyone else who is curious about the water based finishes.

Thanks for all the good information and help!
//mike

[Jason Rodgers]

Thank you, Mike!

[Chuck Tweedy]

Hey Mike - thanks for writing up your build and sharing.
As far as me documenting my experience is concerned THIS post is as good as you will ever get. I thought I was done

[Mike Conner]

Chuck,
You are right about that post in this thread - in fact it is so good that it shouldn't be hidden 4 pages deep
As a tutorial for your method I think it deserves to be proudly displayed. I was tempted to copy it into the Journal as an alternative method, but this was your work and your method! If it's OK with you I could put a link to this thread in the Journal in the Resources appendix.
//mike

[Chuck Tweedy]

Mike, HERE it is as a Google Doc