The Dye Masters!

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Gilbert Fredrickson
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The Dye Masters!

Post by Gilbert Fredrickson »

I need to hear some uplifting stories about mixing dyes for top coat tints. How do you make your Mahogany stand out in a crowd? How does your "aged top" look 100 years old next week? You have three primary-ish colors of powered dye, why would Rembrandt take notice of your Vintage Amber? How did you mix your three colors to get this Martin-esque Pumpkin Orange Amber Kinda Color?
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Barry Daniels
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Re: The Dye Masters!

Post by Barry Daniels »

I've still got a box full of aniline dyes, but I mostly use TransTint now. And you can buy it already mixed in an amber color. Or just mix a little red and yellow. Add enough to your top coat mix so it looks about the strength of ice tea. When you start laying down coats, stop before you get to the darkness you originally wanted because it always gets a little darker as it drys. And you can't make it lighter without starting over.
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Mike Conner
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Re: The Dye Masters!

Post by Mike Conner »

Gilbert: Transtint for me also. There are alot of pre-mixed options for a wide range of colors. I have used Honey Amber, Vintage Maple and Medium Brown. Dilute with alcohol. I put a few drops of Honey Amber into waterborne poly to warm up the look, gives it a traditional varnish color.
Alan Carruth
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Re: The Dye Masters!

Post by Alan Carruth »

Be careful what you get for dyes. Fred Dickens used to tell about using a 'universal' analine dye to approximate orange shellac in lacquer. He sprayed some on and when he went to wet sand it level it looked as though somebody had stuck a pin into the guitar in a hundred places: it was bleeding. The dye was a mixture of red, orange and yellow dyes, some of which were soluble in alcohol, some in oil, and some in water. The ones that didn't dissolve in the finish were suspended as tiny particles that didn't show up as opaque. The red was water soluble, and when he sanded into the particles they dissolved and ran out all over the guitar. He had to sand back to the wood (dry!) and start over.
Mike Conner
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Re: The Dye Masters!

Post by Mike Conner »

Somebody correct me if I recall it wrong, but I recall that the TransTint colors are more "light-fast" than the older aniline dye colors.
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Barry Daniels
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Re: The Dye Masters!

Post by Barry Daniels »

That is what is advertised and it does seem to be true in my experience. Red aniline dye seems to be the least light-fast.
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Marshall Dixon
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Re: The Dye Masters!

Post by Marshall Dixon »

Potassium dichromate will give mahogany a red coloration. I start with a 10% solution and go from there. Never had to make a stronger solution, just repeat the application if desired. This probably won't get you the 100 year old look you're after though.

The only other wood I've dyed has been maple. I've made my own two part "gunstock" dye for this which uses potassium dichromate as one part and rusty nails soaked in vinegar for two months as part two (the recipe I use is from Fine Woodworking magazine 1977 and calls for organic vinegar with the "mother" in it). I gave up on this process because I couldn't get consistent results.

I have on hand black, yellow and red water soluble aniline dyes that I used for my last maple back and sides trying to emulate a Gibson sunburst. I think it worked well but was surprised how much black it took. I started with a fairly weak solution but mixed it stronger and stronger. I think I must have applied the black 6 times and would have done more but it started coming through the inside.

I've got 4 maple bodies in the works now and plan on amber. For this I bought a can of water based stuff called Sedona red because that was the color I liked on line. But it turned out to be too red and I mixed some yellow aniline and got an acceptable amber. (I guess it's acceptable but I'm colorblind.) Also purchased a can of some pre-treatment that is supposed to prevent the splotchy take up that happens. Have only tried this on a small sample yet.

I have about 100 tops worth of sugar pine that I selected from a neighbor's huge stack of stickered 16 foot 1 by 12's. This is all prime vertical grained wood with no runout. The issue is the resin in the wood. For the most part it is resin channels that come to the surface and heating the wood to 175° for several hours causes a lot of resin to work it's way out and can be cleaned off. More of an issue is that some pieces have splotchy areas of resin that permeates the plate, so have been thinking about dying some of these tops to even out the color.
Gilbert Fredrickson
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Re: The Dye Masters!

Post by Gilbert Fredrickson »

Yup, I knew there were masters here. Always ask an expert. Really great advice. The Trans Tint dyes look really good. Thanks. I do plan to do another vintage Gibson style sunburst with something other than rattle cans. I hand shaded leather and wood products in high school 50 years ago with wipe on stains. I suppose it's like riding a bike.
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Barry Daniels
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Re: The Dye Masters!

Post by Barry Daniels »

Wiping dye on bare wood is one method and then there is mixing dye into clear coats to make a shaded toner. These are very different methods and yield very different results. I like the toner method myself because you don't have to worry about blotches caused by uneven adsorption.
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Marshall Dixon
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Re: The Dye Masters!

Post by Marshall Dixon »

I couldn't remember at the time. Minwax is the brand of wood pretreatment I referred to earlier. As Barry said, blotching is bad. This stuff is supposed to prevent that and help control raising of the grain. I've yet to actually use it, just put in on a test piece. I looking for an even coloration of the whole body.

The thing about dyeing the wood is that you really don't want to sand through during the initial leveling process. That happened to me using that two part "gunstock" finish on the day I gave it up.

The blotchiness aspect of dying is a little easier to deal with on a sunburst, where the colors gradually blend into each other. But even with black, it required spotting over areas repeatedly to even out the color.
Alan Carruth
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Re: The Dye Masters!

Post by Alan Carruth »

There are lots of ways of coloring wood that are not strictly 'dyes'. A mild lye solution wiped on will bring up the natural color of cherry, and, to a lesser extent, maple. Since I use a wood stove to heat the shop I just make some up from ashes when I want it, and it seems to work better than commercial lye. Don't use a strong solution; it should just feel 'soapy', and repeat until you get the color you want.

Ammonia fuming works for some woods, particularly ones with high tannin content. Traditionally it's used on white oak for the 'Golden Oak' look, but I've also used it on Osage orange and locust. With the Osage it takes off a lot of the garish yellow 'edge', producing a darker and more 'mature' look. Locust can turn very dark. Sometimes it brings up a greenish cast that you may not like, particularly if you leave the wood in too long. I've had good luck with regular household ammonia: the chemical company refused to sell me blueprint grade, which is hazardous if you don't have good ventilation. I'm told you can get stronger 'industrial' grade ammonia through office supply houses. Both lye and ammonia simply bring up the color that's already there in the wood, and don't obscure the grain or chatoyance. The wood will keep getting darker naturally; they just speed it up.

Ferric acetate and tannin is the traditional black dye, and is permanent. It forms a black iron oxide in the wood, and so doesn't obscure the grain. This is a good one for fingerboards, although it's just a surface stain and will wear off. I've also used a tea made by boiling walnut hulls in water. The 'juglone' dye is the same stuff that gives walnut wood it's color, and you can get a pretty dark stain even on maple with a few applications. It's not totally color fast, but pretty good.

Dyes absorb some colors and allow others to pass, and the energy of the absorbed light can trigger chemical changes. That's why red dyes tend to be the least color fast ' they absorb the higher energy blue light. I like to use dyes or pigments in the finish, rather than on the wood in most cases; as Barry says, it's safer. Colored varnish can soak deeply into end grain and produce a very dark spot that can't be removed. I tend to use either a pumice and resin ground coat or a couple of coats of clear varnish on the wood to seal, followed by several color coats, and then at least three coats of clear to polish carefully up .

I've used artist's oil colors, in particular 'burnt umber' and 'rose madder' for shading. Both are fairly transparent: the madder is a 'lakes' pigment, and more transparent than the umber. For shading I mixed them with some thinner, applied some over the desired area, and wiped it back to feather the edge. It's hard to get it even, but it can be reasonably good if you're careful and use lots of layers. since I use oil varnish anyway I just lightly sand the varnish with #400 or finer paper, apply the shading, and allow it to dry over night. Then I put on another coat of varnish to lock it in. Obviously you have to be careful about sanding into the color coats as you polish it up later, and 3-5 clear coats over the color of the thin Murdoch's varnish I'm using are (just) sufficient if you're careful. Artist's colors are considered to be 'permanent'.

Finally, many years ago, I used a powdered gesso color in French polish to simulate the white sunburst on Tele 'parts-o-caster'. Some 'old gold' aniline dye, from 7K Colors (which is considered fairly 'fast') gave it the desired 'aged' tint. I had used some 'crackle' primer (basically, a clear flexible latex) on the wood to facilitate the next step, which was to put the thing into the freezer overnight. When it took it out in the morning I could watch the cracks running over the surfaces. A little judicious beating up around the edges, and a convincing belt buckle scratch on the back,were followed by a wipe with walnut hull tea to bring up the crazing and dirty the exposed wood. An old neck and pickups were used to complete the job, and the owner now has a convincing stage guitar to stand in for his original '52.
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Peter Wilcox
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Re: The Dye Masters!

Post by Peter Wilcox »

I've used artist water colors on several tops. This one was pthalo blue, IIRC, and what a great surprise when the maple sapwood took it so differently than the heartwood. Finished with clear coats of nitro.
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Gilbert Fredrickson
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Re: The Dye Masters!

Post by Gilbert Fredrickson »

There is some very helpful information above. Thanks.
Darrel Friesen
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Re: The Dye Masters!

Post by Darrel Friesen »

For what it's worth, I used the ultra blue penetrating stain on a Benedetto copy I built. The same as used for the Blue Guitars in the Chinery collection. 15 years later and admittedly on a stand for some of that time but not in any sunlight, it has faded considerably especially the top which has almost no blue color left. In the case at all times when not playing is a good idea. Maybe it's a stain as opposed to a dye thing.
David King
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Re: The Dye Masters!

Post by David King »

Please be very careful with potassium dichromate. It's a hexavalent chromium (think Erin Brockvitch). Use disposable gloves, wear goggles, mix up only the amount needed and don't ever dump it down the drain. Think ahead about how you'll want to rinse off the instrument and deal with that water safely too. Leftover can be poured into paper towels, left to dry out and tossed in the trash wrapped in a sealed plastic baggie or two. It can be chemically neutralized but that's not something I want to get into here. That said it works really well on high tannin woods like myrtle, oak etc.
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