dedicated radiused solera for use with outside mold [Pictures] - created 11-21-2005

Leparskas, Henry - 11/21/2005.11:49:00

I plan to move from using the Cumpiano-Natelson radiusing method to a fully domed one. Also, I am going to replace my adjustable dowel-based outside mold with a dedicated shape for spanish neck classical.

There has been lots of helpful discussion about the radiused dish for sanding purposes, and I hope to make a sanding dish by making use of one of the miriad of nice jigs that is in the library.

I'm curious as to how to make the domed workboard itself, which will contain the neck support for when the guitar gets the back installed (assuming that I put the top on first). Do I have to carefully dome a workboard the exact length of the guitar body and then cut out the shape of the guitar including neck extension?

I envision then having a mold with feet on it which would sit on the this workboard when assembly takes place.

Any tips on what to do (or not to do?).

Do you want to make a true Spanish construction solera or use a radius dish for the top? In the case of the former I can give you a method for making the solera the traditional way. If you want to use a radius dish for the top, well that's another story.

Stephen, I am going to try a modern radiused dish for both top and back.

I guess that means one sanding dish for each and one working surface that fits under the mold for each.

Henry--do you plan on using the Spanish Heel or a bolt on neck or dovetail joint?

Steve, I will continue using the traditional Spanish heel.

So far I have only ever joined neck to top, then done the sides, then back.

I can envision that the solid outside mold will have to allow for the neck to be already attached to the guitar and so will have to have an opening to allow for this.

Do people have pin systems so that the mold registers within both the top and bottom workboards?

Henry,

Ok, but the two systems are not nessesarily compatible. Spanish construction is about building the back and top to a flat plane. A radius dish makes it something else. (I call it North American construction) Also gluing the top and neck together in true Spanish construction means you need to make the solera to a plane. It does not make much sense to use a dish and then build with a Spanish heel neck. It's problem ridden. You may as well use a bolt on neck.

Henry, Also keep in mind I know the solera very well and am radically biased against the radius dish being used on Spanish guitars. I think it changes the beauty of the guitar built to a plane. So take what ever I say with a grain of salt. I'm in the minority most of the time on the concept that the top and back look more beautiful built to a plane.

I started building "North American" style, steel string guitars with bolt on necks.

When I did some of the early romantic guitars, I needed to use a dovetail, and did some other construction things which were different.

I built the outside form, placed it on a flat surface (initially), and got the curvature of the back with the radius dish. After getting the back curvature, I placed the guitar in the back dish, and get the soundboard curvature.

With no neck, all of this was easy. I don't think it would work with a Spanish Heel construction method. If you used a bolt on neck or dovetail, you could adapt the method.

dedicated radiused solera for use with outside mold

I think my basic problem here is that the Solera is a system that has been around for a long time. It's a method even though the 'solera' is a component of the method. I prefer for dish built guitars to be built on 'workboards' or something else. The solera means the guitar is being made to a certain system. The words 'Radiused Solera' to me, means two systems are in collision.

Stephen, I refer to 'solera' as a shaped workboard in the sense that it is used in the Romanillos book, where I first saw it used. You can restrict its definition for use with a perfectly flat work surface if you wish. To me, the 'solera' represents the female shape, as in 'soltera', domed or not .

An example of spanish heel construction with beautiful outside mold and custom-domed workboard is Michael Lazar's excellent work.

Michael has shown us enough of his tips and tricks that I thought I would open the question up to other spanish heel makers.

So how DOES everyone put their spanish heel box together if they use a domed workboard?

Steve, were you able to do the entire box construction process within the mold?

It has been a few months, and this was a dovetailed headstock/body joint. I had my sides with one strait edge, bent them with a Fox type heating blanket side bender. Touched them up with a hot iron to get them (more) perfect. Placed them in the outside form with the flat edge down. Placed spreaders to hold them in the form, trimmed the ends and glued the end block and head block in place.

I trimmed the end and headblock and sides near to the correct height, and got the back curvature.

Place the dished board on the worksurface, turned the form and sides over, and got the soundboard surface close to the final dimensions.

I used solid linings, and glued these in place, sanded down the front and back to the final dimensions, and glued the side reinforcements in place (I almost always reinforce the sides a little).

I glued the back on. Then turned it all over, and removed the spreaders from the inside. If the dimensions remained good (no twisting of the sides of significance) then I don't brace the inside. If it is twisty or something is not perfect, I place a thin piece of wood to correct any of the twist. I notch these in the middle so that I can reach in with a finger and break the piece of wood and pull it out of the sound hole. Then I glue the top in place.

Sorry to be so wordy, but I had to think this through step by step in my mind.

Very nice Steve. Thanks. Have you seen Michael Lazars pages on his step-by-step? Very informative and like David Schramm, a very nice thing to do for all of us.

How we do some of these minor details is what will bring out the 'luthier' in each of us I guess. Especially how to treat the taper in the back and how much construction to do in the mold.

Both you and Michael Lazar put your sides, heel block, and linings together first, using the mold. I have to get my head around that, coming from using the method of attaching the top to the neck first on a flat workboard.

Anyway, just what the doctor ordered. Now to go create some shavings.

Thanks again. I hope that once I am done I can contribute my feedback on what worked for me.

Henry,

I only take issue with this because eight or ten generations of Spanish builders developed and refined a way of building the guitar on a solera to a plane geometry. It's a complete system, not a closed system, but a complete system. This system was developed the same way the Italians developed the violin; Over a long period of time and with a great deal of cultural continuity of musicians, various shops, journeymen builders and composers.

To construct in whatever way one wants to construct is a personal choice; It's a free world of ideas, almost. My concern is that the art of making the guitar to a plane geometry is being washed over by a lack of language to differenciate between two styles of building. I think everyone who makes a variant of the Torres guitar owes everything to the Spanish school which intially developed it, regardless of how modern builders have changed the construction process.

I'm not advocating that the Torres contruction be held in a static position that does not allow it to move farther, but rather that the continuity of the generations of workshops that created it be acknowledged by the evolution of language to distinguish between radius dish building and the traditional solera.

That's some cool history you have brought forward Stephen. Where do you guys learn this stuff that doesn't seem to be in books. Is there something about those smoke filled flamenco bars that some of us don't know about?

Seriously, do you have any references which describe the 'solera' as a complete 'system'? I haven't heard that before. I'd be curious to know how much variation they had on this solera, and if a guy down the street in Madrid came up with a slight variation on the technique, did he still use the term 'solera' for his system. Yes, references please. I'd love to read more about the history of guitars.

Our native inuit people used to soften their hides for clothing by soaking in a mixture of brains and pee. Nowadays they use Fleecy fabric softener. I won't be the judge of which system is better, but the process is still called the same thing. Oh boy, do I hear Bill Shakespeare in the background..?

Yes, references please. I'd love to read more about the history of guitars.

That's the problem. People read books instead of going out and finding it for themselves. The confusion is that those who advocate making the guitar in the radius dish are not speaking to the issue of how it changes the geometry of what the Spanish makers, from Torres to Archangel Fernandez, spent thier lives making. One generation of North Americans on the internet are disregarding 150 years of guitarmaking without steeping themselves in the history of what they are saying is inferior.

The arch that rises from a flat plane around the perimeter of the plantilla, is different from the arch that is created in a radius dish. The arch rising from a flat plane is a complex curve that in each guitar is an individual entity. A guitar made in a radius dish has a sure fire mechanical back/liner connection which geometrically encroaches or violates the flat plane geometery of the guitar built in flat solera workboard.

What irks me is that people are led directly to the radius dish method of building and the explaination of the differences between the two methods is not elucidated.

It's not that big of a deal until you look carefully at the work of the Spanish school first hand-there's much to be understood. Francisco Simplicio is not as 'simplicio' as the Norte Americanos think.

Hi Stephen,

I certainly wouldn't mind being educated. Please elucidate the salient differences between the solera arching and the radius dish arching. Is it that the solera arching all starts fron the same plane at the perimeter of the guitar and so is not a uniform radius? What archings are typical and how are they done?

Oh, and by the way, who said the Spanish method was inferior?

Thanks for stepping in Clay. Perhaps I should have done it before.

Stephen, I asked what I thought was a reasonable question.

Perhaps you could start another thread on 'what irks you', and not hijack this one. Much appreciated.

I'd like to see that new discussion too. But not so much about being irked as for sharing your knowledge with us.

Now I feel kinda stupid. Let me finish another project here and I'll see what I can do. You're actually pretty scrappy Henry.

Stephen, I asked what I thought was a reasonable question.

I had to play gig yesterday in an old folks home, which was nice. The dancer who arranged the show told me a few hours before the show that my old girlfriend would be filling in for a sick member of the crew. Which was nice as well, but I was nervous. Your reasonable question did not seem reasonable until after I got through the show and realized you were not beating me with a bamboo stick.

As for the accusation of hijacking........I plead not guilty.

Back on a more serious note, like Michael, I would love to hear more about the history in the area of Spanish makers that is not in the usual books.

I was in heaven a few years ago when a friend dug out about 30 copies of the old Guitar magazine from Britain and loaned them to me.

In other areas I am poorly read, and have yet to get the Red books, for instance. I should really join GAL too.

So I am open to new info. Bring it on! Just don't wake the 'solera' police.

Ok, Henry.

I'll start a new thread when I compose myself

I should really join GAL too.

I highly recommend Eugene Clark's articles on rosette making. GAL #71 Fall 2002 and 73 Spring 2003

Hold on there. Are you a mind reader Stephen?

I'm in the middle of trying to make my own traditional Spanish rosettes for the second time. I've got the 'column logs' all glued and am letting them dry before slicing and dicing.

I recently completed a classical that was fully domed and built it with a solera and side mold.

I carved the dome on the solera just a little larger than the body outline. That left a flat surface for the side mold to register to. I also planed a slight back angle into the solera for the neck.

I made the side mold so that it could disassemble at the center seem. It also has a removable chunk where the neck goes during the assembly process. The chunk goes back in when I'm using the mold to hold the sides prior to assembly. I glue the sides to the end block and shape the dome in the sides using the outside mold in its full configuration.

There are holes in the mold and solera which register them to each other and also allow spool cramps to be used. Most of these holes are oversize to make it easier for the cramps to be inserted but a few are tight and keep the mold to the sides registered when the neck chunk is removed. The bolt which holds the neck end of the two pieces of mold together is far enough away from the heel so that it can be used when the neck is in place. I use a waist spreader and the neck bolt helps counter the pressure.

My assembly procedure is pretty traditional. Top attaches to neck and the assembly is mounted to the solera. Sides are held in place with the spool cramps. I use tentellones for the top-side connection. Then I fit a dome to the back, install kerfed lining. I use spool cramps for gluing on the top.

I'll post a picture of my rig in a follow up message.

Tooling for fully domed guitar using a solera and side mold.

John, I can't thank you enough for realizing the information that I needed. Perhaps you are the mind reader!

Yesterday, before I had read your posting, I decided to rough cut the pieces for the mold and a flat workboard.

For the mold I left a 3" long tab at the tailblock, because I thought I would use this to bolt the ends together.

John, in your photo, I don't notice a mechanism at the tailblock for joining the two halves. What would I use here.

The cutout of the neck is a wonderful idea. Now I see how you can continue to use the technique of joining the neck to the top first.

Do you glue the top/neck to the sides with the top 'up' or 'down' in the mold?

I'll leave further questions for later, after I study your post a bit more carefully. You've made my day.

John, I see the long bolt holding the front of the mold together, so I assume that there is just a longer one at the back.

You mention that you plane your top dome to ease it into the neck angle.

With this technique, are you able to assemble the sides to the top/neck with the top sitting in the dome, and have the set of the neck work out for you? That would be handy.

Henry, yes there is a long bolt in the tail area of the mold. I route a channel for it before I assemble the mold. I also made a few cuts in the mold so it would work with the longest bolt I had on hand.

After the top is glued to the neck I mount the top on the solera and clamp the neck down. The idea is to have the correct neck angle dialed in at this point. What that angle should be is another story but this is a good way to build what you're looking for.

As I mentioned before, I do glue the sides to the tailblock and establish a domed shape just using the side mold. After that, everything comes together on the solera- and it's the domed shape of the solera that gets locked in. I use tentellones because I want to do as much of the assembly on the solera as possible but you could put linings on the sides first.

Here's another shot of the tooling. The cuts in the solera enable my cam clamps to reach the braces when they are being glued to the top. I do that before the top is glued to the neck. The holes in the solera were going to be for supports for a go-bar deck that I was going to add but I got tired of tooling and built with cam clamps.

John, the second photo shows the access to the rear bolt. Very nice.

I'll still try mine with the tail, now that I have cut it out.

What radius are you using for the front? Do you use the router slide method of making the dome? Do you have any tips for the reshaping of the upper bout section of the workboard? Specifically I am wondering if you have to go through the making of a prototype(s) in order to dial in the neck set, or can this be tuned while assembling the first guitar?

Sorry for the barrage of questions.

My solera is the shape of a 1985 Laskin classical.

John, I see that you are using symmetrical bracing.

I wondered how I would pick a bracing design for this guitar.

The only high quality classicals that I have actually had my hands on are a Laskin, Larrivee, deJonge, and Bennetto. Some day I have to make a trip into the big city and try out some more.

What I did was then go through the Urlich book "A Collection of Fine Classical Guitars", and took note of the authors judgement of the sound qualities of these historical instruments.

What caught my eye were the glowing reports on the Enrique Garcia, and Santos Hernandez guitars. Like the Laskin, these have the Manuel Ramirez( do I have the right Ramirez?) harmonic bar. However, the Garcia also has the assymmetrical brace spacing, which is not unlike the tops that Michael Lazar has been making recently.

So, I think I'll try something similar for a top bracing pattern.

I'm not sure what I am getting in to, but I want to try the laminated solid linings, so I have routed up a form for making them.

Henry, my top is about a 25' radius. I have a record convex/concave adjustable plane that I mostly used to carve the dome but it's easy enough to do with any small plane.

To get the neck set right it's important to understand the geometry. I would suggest that you draw a full scale profile view of the dome, bridge, saddle, neck, fingerboard, frets and strings with the action you want. Then you can see how the neck angle and fret board tapper relate to saddle height and action. If you do that, you should be able to set the neck angle so that with a little adjustment of the fret board thickness and taper things will be where you want them to be.

I ended up having the strings off the deck at the max. distance I was shooting for. I didn't add any reinforcement to the Spanish cedar neck that I used and I expected it to give some but it hasn't moved yet. Maybe with harder strings, which are going on next.

What makes you want to use a domed top as opposed to the more traditional approach?

To get the neck set right it's important to understand the geometry. I would suggest that you draw a full scale profile view of the dome, bridge, saddle, neck, fingerboard, frets and strings with the action you want. Then you can see how the neck angle and fret board tapper relate to saddle height and action.

Yes, that's exactly what you do. I do it with the solera.

Henry,

Some of the information John is giving works with the information I'm giving. There's a good deal of crossover, right. Do you see the differences and the similarities?

The only significant difference I can see in out methods, Stephen, is that I carved a complete dome in the solera. Everything else, including how the neck angle is set seems to me to involve essentially the same techniques. My technique keeps a plane which is used to register everything else from, it's just that my plane is outside the perimeter of the guitar.

The dome shape does result in an instrument with a different look than traditional instruments, I'm still trying to decide if I like it.

I imagine the dome also effects the sound, but how and how much, well who knows?

I liked your descriptions of the arch of the traditional design in the other thread and it makes me appreciate the beauty of those designs even more than I already do.

John,

My technique keeps a plane which is used to register everything else from, it's just that my plane is outside the perimeter of the guitar.

Yes I can see that's about the only difference between the two styles we are talking about.

I liked your descriptions of the arch of the traditional design in the other thread and it makes me appreciate the beauty of those designs even more than I already do.

Thanks, that's all I was trying to do.

I hope to see more guitars from you.