Tru Oil sealer problems, cannot get it to level. - created 08-12-2010
clayton, gareth - 08/12/2010.01:25:29
I am on the final finishing stages of my all swamp ash project.
I had got the wood finished stained with a alcohol based black powdered stain and coloured to a good level that I was happy with.
I am planning on keeping the grain open and finishing the whole thing off with tru oil in order to keep a natural look to the whole deal.
I purchased some tru oil sealer and filler along with the tru oil finisher. I have had this for a few years but have only recently started to use it for test pieces and mini projects.
I remember sealing the test pieces fine and then adding the tru oil with good results.
Now I have started to seal the guitar I have found that the sealer is going on very thickly and I am finding it difficult to get it to level out. In some lights and from some angles there are streaks showing where the sealer has gone on unevenly when I wiped it on the surface of the wood.
Will this level out when I start to put the tru oil finish on it? I intend on applying numerous coats of the tru oil with light buffing with 0000 wire wool so will this enable to finish to take on a more even appearance. OR am I going to have to start all over again and make sure that the finish is perfect before I add the tru oil?
This is my first ever project and has been going on for years so while I am hoping it turns out nicely I'm willing to acknowledge that mistakes will happen and improvements could be made. As I said, the sealer only looks uneven in certain lights and from certain angles.
Anyway, any advice gratefully received!
GJC
Gareth, I've never used that product, but it sounds like you just have some un-even coverage issues.
You always want to sand or scrape a sealer coat back so the surface is dead-flat. Some sealers that really penetrate the wood you want to sand back to bare wood.
The directions for the product should have some instruction on what to do prior to going to the top-coat.
I've tried the Tru-Oil sealer and I didn't like it. I've found going straight to the Tru-Oil works better. I put two to four coats on, then two or three coats that are wet sanded with the Tru-Oil using 400 wet or dry paper. The sanding gives a partial pore fill. Then build as many coats as you want.
Hi Gareth,
I am no expert by any means, but I might be able to help. I recently finished 3 acoustics with Tru-Oil that came out great (Indian Rosewood and Mahogany), and have been using it to finish guitar necks now for several years. Please keep in mind, though, that when it comes to finishing there usually are lots of different ways to achieve good results. I'll share what I would do given the situation you describe.
First, you mention you can see unevenness and/or streaking from certain angles and in certain lighting. Unfortunately, that's not going to go away, and the time to address it is now before you go any further. From what you described, it sounds to me like the Tru-Oil Sealer/Filler is the culprit. My experience with it, and what I've read from others who've used it, is that it's very tricky and unforgiving to apply, and gives mixed results. It might also be that it's just a plain lousy product for doing what you want it to do. At the very least, the stuff needs to be thinned quite a bit (using mineral spirits or turpentine), and even then it seems to have a tendency to leave a kind of hazy/cloudy look to the finish once the Tru-Oil is applied over it. Since it sounds like the reason you are using it is to "seal" rather than "fill" the wood, if it were me I'd just stop using the stuff, get what's currently on the guitar levelled or removed from it, and then use shellac for the sealer.
Getting it off, or getting it leveled so the streaks and unevenness disappear shouldn't be that big a deal. You do want to be mindful, though, that you've got a stain underneath it (unless you don't mind touching that up or reapplying it completely). Make sure you have good lighting so you can see what's happening as you level or remove, and start sanding with something non-aggressive like 0000 steel wool to see how you're progressing. If that's not doing the trick, go to something more aggressive like 400 grit sandpaper wrapped around a sanding block and see what that does, and then to 320 grit, 240 grit etc, etc until you arrive at what seems to work best. You should be able to get it levelled well with this type of approach. And, it may take some time, depending on how thick it's on there right now. Take your time and you'll get great results. Heck, you mentioned that this project has been going on for years, so an hour or two invested in getting the existing stuff looking good and levelled is nothing!
Once you get it levelled and it looks good to you, wipe it with a clean cloth loaded with a little Naphtha----before the Naphtha dries off, look at the surface from several angles---that will give you a real good idea of what your finish will look like. If you see some imperfections, take care of them and before you know it you'll be ready for the next step.
For a sealer, I'd just use a light coat or two of 1 pound, dewaxed blonde shellac---I know you said this is your first project, so if that just didn't make sense, that's OK. The idea is to have a seal coat over your stain coat (or the remaining Tru-Oil Seal/Filler remnants still on the guitar), and shellac works great with just about everything for that. You just need a light coat or two that's evenly and lightly applied. After it dries (to be safe, let it dry overnight), you can lightly scuff it with 0000 steel wool or even 320 grit sandpaper. The idea is to just very lightly scuff sand it so your surface is real level. Now, you're ready to apply the Tru-Oil!
I noticed you said you've had the Tru-Oil for "a few years." I've spoken with the manufacturer (Birchwood-Casey) about the shelf life for their Tru-Oil product before, and according to them they say it's good for "about a year." I'm sure there are folks out there who've gotten great results with Tru-Oil they've had for years, and if I was finishing a gun stock I might be willing to give it a try. But not for something like a fine guitar project. I'd recommend getting fresh product, and using what you have on hand for something else. Once you get fresh product, I'd also recommend thinning it a bit with mineral spirits or turpentine----that's what I do, although I know of many others who use it straight out of the bottle and get great results. I just find it's easier to apply when it's thinned a bit. And, you want to apply it in very thin coats, each of which is allowed to dry before applying another coat. I use a ratio of 6 parts Tru-Oil to 1 part mineral spirits---I just simply measure out 30cc's of oil to 5 cc's of mineral spirits and put it in a small 2 ounce plastic bottle I use as a container. You may find that another thinning ratio works best for you, or may even do great without thinning it at all. Practice on scrap for awhile to see what works best.
One thing I've also found useful is to store the Tru-Oil bottles upside down, and to only keep them open (i.e. exposed to air) for the least amount of time possible. The oil immediately reacts to oxygen when the bottle is opened and exposed to air and the oil starts developing a crust. By storing the bottle upside down, the crust will end up being at the bottom of the container when you turn it upright to remove the cap and apply oil to the cheesecloth pad (or whatever you use)to apply your Tru-Oil coats.
Another thing that may be helpful is that once you've got as many coats on as you want and are done applying the Tru-Oil, you need to let the finish cure before rubbing it out (with the 0000 wool or whatever else you're going to use). Basically, the longer you can let it cure, the better the finish will be when rubbed out. The waiting might be the hardest part of all---at least it is for me. But, it really does make a difference. I let it cure for 3 to 4 weeks before rubbing it out. Again, you might find something different that works fine for you.
Hope this helps Gareth. I'm sure with just a little time and effort you'll end up with a fantastic finish!
Best Regards,
John
Once again the guys at MIMF come through!
This is excellant, excellant advice so thank you all (Esp. John!).
I am going to check the project now and see how it looks then just bite the bullet and sand the bugger down with 400grit. I have tried in the past few days to level it with 0000 wire wool and it just didn't work. So I think that the 400 maybe the answer.
I do have the stain in place and was happy with the results, but if needs be I will reapply and touch up.
I'll also look into the shellac as a sealer. Or maybe jump straight to the tru oil. I have heard of people using the tru oil immediately so this might be an option.
Either way I think it might be this weekend where I jump into it again!
Thanks for all your advice.
I'll make sure to post some images when I'm done!
GJC
What the others said.
I use thinned Tru-Oil as the sealer and have had nice results. Thinning with mineral spirits will give you a slower build, but makes it easier to work the wet edge when applying it.
Lay it on as evenly as you can and by all means resist the temptation of going back over it and fussing with it or you'll definitely end up with ridges.
Straight up or thinned, Tru-Oil levels out reasonably well but will need some light sanding/wooling between coats once cured. It will cure faster in low RH. I only dry sand now (400 and higher, and/or 0000 wool between coats) after the white swarth slurry on my first project with Tru-Oil got lodged in pores and had to be picked out. I can usually apply one or two coats per week...gotta be patient if you want good results.
PS: Do I NEED to apply a sealer coat? I have started to sand down the top of the guitar with 400grit and it is clearing that filthy, stodgy tru oil sealer... slowly.
I am going to go back down to 600grit to make sure the finish is good again, but I will then have to reapply some stain as I can see it's already started to fade due to the sanding. I had the top just about right and now I need to reapply... It's annoying but something I'm willing to do. What's worse though is that I am using an alcohol based stain which means that it streaks really easily anyway!
Not the process I was expecting but never mind.
So yea, do I need to seal the wood after reapplying a stain coat or two or do you think that the tru oil will act as a good enough sealer.
I am moderately familiar with shellac, but have never used it. It is a bit intimidating. I also live in Canada and so not sure I can get hold of denatured alcohol. At the moment I am using 99.9% proof stuff used to thin paints and clear fuel lines (!). Is that ok to use?
Sorry for more questions!
GJC
PPS: I have bought a new batch of Tru oil... the old stuff had gone hard and had bits floating in it. I didn't want to risk using that!
Once you get your surface back to where you want it, I don't think you'll have any problem using Tru-Oil as the sealer over an alcohol based stain, at least not on Ash. I've done so and it worked fine (no bleeding). On tropical woods I'd think twice.
Thanks Bob, thats the answer I was hoping for. I'll be careful to apply this in a slightly more balanced and even way!
Maybe the thinning will work.
Thanks again people. Excellent responses and so prompt too!
I will be sure to post images of my final product.
Hi Gareth,
Below is a link to a document that has some good info about finishing a guitar with Tru-Oil----you may find some parts of it helpful, especially where they address the differences between using it for a pore-filled vs. open pore finish.
There's no problem using the Tru-Oil as a seal coat, but Bob's advice about thinning it for at least seal-coat purposes is a good one. So is his recommendation about not using it if you have anything that will bleed (such as colored bindings). Testing your approach on scrap is always worthwhile if you've got any doubts about the steps you plan to use in your finishing schedule.
Another thing Bob mentioned is really important too---you don't want to wet sand an open pore finish, because you'll end up with junk in the pores you don't want. If you dry sand in between coats with fine sandpaper or wool, be sure to thoroughly clean the surface with compressed air and/or a tack rag before putting your next coat on.
You should be able to get to the article I mention above by
clicking on: http://www.lmii.com/carttwo/truoil.htm
The key thing now is to spend the time to get your surface prepped as best as you possibly can. Looking forward to seeing your finished product!
Best Regards,
John
Trust, but verify...always. What John said about testing is important. It's not the header on the Glues and Finishes page for nothing. Even though our dyes are alcohol based, the soluability of the tinting agent may be different (mine was walnut husks). Better to see problems on scrap than to have to start from square one...but you already know this.
I wipe down with very damp mineral spirits just before adding a coat....and hold my breath for five-ten minutes to minimize blowing any dust onto the wet surface.
As you build up your finish, you may find the pores filling up and decide to keep going and fill them completely. Do it well and outside of the Sharpies on this forum, few will be able to tell that it's not a sprayed finish.
I did check all this with test pieces and it worked out fine, which is why I was so shocked that it all messed up when adding it to the final piece.
I am sanding right down with 400grit now, then I'll reapply the stain (which I have noticed is taking on different tones and darknesses on each side of the guitars book matched top anyway! I may have to reapply and even this up)...
I'll then thin the tru oil I just purchased and get that on there.
I was working from the LMII info originally so have all that to hand, thanks for the link anyway.
Thanks again
I also think the TruOil sealer is less than worthless.
I prefer 400-600 grit paper to steel wool, but I can't give you a good reason.
I've found that warming the TruOil to ~110°F (bathwater warm) helps when applying it, it seems to level out a little quicker. For me, it is better than thinning. YMMV
I'll wipe down lightly with the wool after using 3 digit grits, but not after I get into 4 digit and higher grits. All sanding should be done using a firm sanding block...that knocks the high spots down.
Warming up the T-O sounds like a nifty idea. That should reduce the number of coats and speed things up a bit. Will try that one soon.
I prefer 400-600 grit paper to steel wool, but I can't give you a good reason.
How about the fact that steel wool doesn't level anything? You may be able to knock down a few high spots, but due to the nature of holding with your fingers, it will follow the low spots too. If you want to level, it's much better to use sandpaper with a sanding block.
I wouldn't go past 400 grit unless you have some *really* high spots. That should be enough.
OK! Everything has been going swimmingly since all the problems with the tru oil sealer etc.
I managed to get all that crud off the wood, restain to a suitable degree and prepped the surface afresh.
I am on coat four of the tru oil application now.
It is starting to get a really really nice sheen all over it and making the quilting on the swamp ash (I know! Quilting on swamp ash!) and the sanded back stain really pop.
My main issue is applying the tru oil! I thought it was meant to be easy?
I have tried thinning it, and lately warming it gently before applying. I am buffing down very slightly with 800grit wet and dry on a block between coats and applying the oil with a pad (homemade shallac style.).
The tru oil is going on streaky and uneven. I can't get it to go on smoothly and as a result, although the sheen is lovely it is hard to work with and not easy to ensure an even coverage.
Any tips or advice?
I am waiting around 24hrs between each coat, and have time to do 2 more before I head back to the UK for two weeks. I thought this would be perfect timing for the final cure, but I am worried I won't get the finish I want before then.
Will it be possible to reapply more coats after the two week break if needs be?!
Thanks again for any advice extended my way!
GJC
I get better results applying it with a cheesecloth or a synthetic steel wool pad, pressing very lightly. You can apply more coats when you get back from your trip. It's a finish that can be easily repaired or added to later. When you get back, do a light "scuff-sand" before continuing.
Hi Gareth,
I'll tell you how I do it, but keep in mind that my technique is just something that works for me after practicing on alot of scrap and even messing up a guitar before I arrived at something that works for me. My technique might not be the best one for you. Try to practice your technique on scrap first so you can figure out what works best. Yes, it does take a little time, and if you're anything like me you'd rather be spending that time on finishing your guitar rather than on scrap. But, without the scrap practice, you end up using the guitar surface itself as your test and learning piece while you're trying to get your application technique perfected.
The whole key is to get the stuff on as thinly and as evenly as possible. If it looks uneven or streaky right after you apply it, then it's going to look that way when it dries. Again, think thin and even (I'll tell you how "thin" in a minute). I dilute my mix by a ratio of 6 parts tru-oil to 1 part mineral spirits, because that ratio seems to work best for me. I've tried using it straight out of the bottle with no thinning, but don't like the way it flows on that way.
First, split your workpiece into manageable sections and apply the oil by wiping it on with the grain. I do acoustics, so I'll focus on 1/2 of a top or 1/2 of a back at a time. Use a pad like cheesecloth or something similar( the shellac type pad you say you're using sounds like it should be OK), and be sure it's smooth and doesn't have any funky ridges, dimples or anything else that will end up telegraphing in the finish as you wipe it on.
Lets use the back of an acoustic guitar as an example. As I said, I split in into two working halves (using the centerline as the border). I have the oil in a little 2 ounce plastic bottle, and the opening at the top of the bottle is less than the diameter of a U.S. dime (it's small). I take a small cheesecloth pad, open the bottle, and turn the bottle quickly upside down on the pad to "load" the pad with a small drop of oil. I do this twice, and that's it----the pad is now loaded and ready to use. Starting at the centerline, I start applying oil in straight wiping strokes to 1/2 of the guitar, working out towards its edge. I usually have to reload the pad exactly as described above one more time to get a smooth, even coating on. Your pad loading may differ a bit from mine depending on whether or not you've thinned the oil, but the idea I want to get across is that it takes very little oil to get a thin, even coating on. Once the oil is on this section, I then take a piece of coffee filter paper that I've cut (the kind they make for drip coffee makers), wrap it around a smooth and flat foam block, and gently wipe the oil coating once with straight strokes and very little pressure.. This smooths out the coating (you'll see some oil absorbed into the paper) and for me at least, gives a uniform and thin coat. Then I do the other half of the guitar top the exact same way (starting with the centerline and working out towards the other edge).
I generally recoat after 6 hours, and do 2 sessions per day. Before recoating, I'll sand the previous coat with 2000 wet (using soapy water) wrapped around the same foam block mentioned above.
Again this is just a method I've come up with that works for me. There are lots of ways to do it, and you just need to find the way that works best for you. Keep at it, and you'll find one. It was great to see that you were able to recover from/fix the problems that the Tru-Oil sealer caused for you last week. With a little more time and patience, you'll be applying a finish to that guitar that you'll really be proud of. Can't wait to see it!
Best Regards,
John
Glad to hear that you're almost out of the woods Gareth.
24 hours drying time may be ok depending on your RH, but I usually wait at least 48. I use the FP style of application: old t-shirt with gauze center and just moisten the muneca. Ridges happen (albeit small). Perhaps you're over saturating the muneca. Less is more: you'll get smaller ridges with a 'dryer' muneca. Try tamping it on a clean surface to see how wet it is before applying to your project.
I'd save the 800 grit for later on and use 400 on these early coats. You'll be ok if you add more coats after a 2 week hiatus.
IIRC: Birchwood/Casey make an aerosol T-O. I may try it, or load up a Preval sprayer with thinned T-O one of these days...
I've used the aerosol T-O and it didn't dry. I've only done limited testing on scrap, but it didn't work for me. I got the aerosol thinking it might go on easier, but it goes on way too thick, and most of it has to be wiped off.
My technique is also quite different. I don't use any fabric. I dip my finger in the warmed oil and rub it directly on the wood and quickly spread it around, repeating until the surface is covered and slightly "wet". I rub off the excess with the heel of my hand, using long strokes and rubbing the oil "into" the wood. This has to be done quickly, because as soon as the excess is wiped off it starts to dry and becomes tacky. You MUST be done before it gets tacky. If you're not, just let it dry for a while and try again.
I only wait about an hour or so between coats, as soon as it's dry to the touch it is ready for another coat. I'll do three or four coats like that, then let it dry overnight before sanding back level with 400 grit. I keep repeating this until I'm satisfied with the results, which is usually between 12 and 20 coats. After sanding back the fourth or fifth time, I keep going until I get one that goes on perfectly, and then I'm done.
It takes a little practice because the timing is VERY critical, getting the entire surface covered and wet (but not too wet) has to be done in seconds, as does rubbing it in. It should take less than two minutes for the whole process.
The bigget trick is being able to tell when to quit rubbing it in. As you're rubbing with the heel of your hand, there will be tiny ridges after your hand passes that you can see leveling out. These ridges are excess oil, and initally they level out pretty quickly, but more slowly as the oil starts to dry. So while you're rubbing, the ridges are getting smaller and smaller, but they are also leveling out more slowly, so you have to get them small enough to completly level out. When you've got everything just right, they disappear almost immediately, and it's time to quit, another 10 seconds and your hand will stick to the drying oil, and it won't level out.
And T-O is safe for skin contact?
You wash your had with just soap I expect.
I've heard you can apply T-O with you finger, but never really thought about what that would entail. Always thought of using a finger for a small object like a handgun stock.
I apply it with a paper towel. I've never really had problems with leveling or witness lines. Maybe I'm doing it all wrong.
I keep going until I get one that goes on perfectly, and then I'm done
That's well said and exactly right.
And T-O is safe for skin contact?
I've never thought about it. I suspect it's not completely safe, but it's never given me any trouble, other than some unsightly goo on my cuticles for a week or so.
Yes, Chuck. The first time I used T-O was on the stock of a black powder pistol.
Tom, I didn't mean to imply that my technique is better, but it is different, and has evolved over the last several years. I originally let every coat dry overnight and sanded back after every coat. That does work just as well, but it takes longer. I decided I could probably do two or three thin coats between sanding, and determined that it didn't need much drying time between coats.
I don't think the method of application is significant, but I like putting it on with my hands, and I've developed a feel for doing it that way.
While I have done one in less than a week, for the $100 Tele Challange I believe, it usually takes me at least two weeks. Three coats a day gets to 12 coats in 4 days, but then there's the other side to do