Methods for rounding fret ends on a bound fretboard - created 12-31-2011

Roberts, Randy - 12/31/2011.15:34:41
May your life's music always come from your heart.

I'm in the process of trying my hand at rounded fret ends, rather than the usual beveled ends, and was hoping for input from any of you that have done rounded fret ends.

One thing I need to know is: how much of a set back from the edge of the fret board to the end of the fret should I allow.

The other thing I'm hoping for is: ideas on technique for rounding the end of the fret. I remember a while back Mario mentioning sanding the ends of the fret rounded, but I don't have a clear picture of exactly how he was doing this. Anyone willing to share their technique with the rest of us?

Should I be aiming for a perfect half circle for the profile of the fret end, as viewed from above, or do I aim to just soften the profile of the fret end a little?

Thanks in advance.

Randy, to make life easier for myself, I round-over all the fret ends first, instead of doing the bevel, by holding the file at different angles, and finishing by "rolling" the file over the frets. Afterwards, I come back and knock the corners off, using a file I modified by sanding one face smooth, and then working my way toward the top of the fret. I was experimenting with the quarter-round file that Stew-Mac sells, but it's a tad too wide for the upper frets, so I might cut it in half.

I finish the ends off by smoothing with different sandpaper.

IIRC, I thought Mario rounded the ends BEFORE installing the frets?

There are two issues involved in fret end finishing.

Firstly, and IMO, most importantly, you need to leave enough real estate on the top of the fret to prevent string fall-off, which happens all too frequently with conventional 35 degree bevelled fret ends.

So for maximum real estate conservation, you would leave the fret end at 90 degrees.

However, the second issue is player comfort, and it would be difficult (in fact impossible) to leave the fret ends at 90 degrees and still make the guitar playable.

So, IMHO , and IME, the best compromise is obtained by putting a 15 degree bevel on the fret end, then sanding in the semicircular contour on the end of the fret, and then rounding over the shoulders to achieve the semi-hemispherical fret end.

Viewed from above, the closer you can approach a perfect semicircle, the better.

As far as set back from the fretboard edge is concerned, are you contemplating cutting the frets to exact length and shaping the frets ends prior to installation?:

Certainly do-able, particularly on bound fretboards. Can't help with any specifics regarding distance in from the edge except to say that the (playable) top of the fret should be as long as possible.

Sorry I wasn't particularly clear.

This is for bound fret boards, and the fret ends will be dealt with before installing the frets. I'm assuming the rounded fret end as being rounded in profile when viewed from above, but the end being as near straight vertical as possible rather than being beveled when viewed from the side (as when looking down the length of the fretboard). I'm picturing the whole point as being to retain as much fret across the fretboard as possible by eliminating the bevel.

I'm picturing that, without a bevel to soften the end profile,there would need to be a slight setback from the fretboard edge to prevent your finger whack whack whacking the vertical fret ends as you move up and down the fretboard. Am I picturing this wrong? Obviously I'm thinking of a very tiny setback from the edge or else there would be no benefit over just beveling the frets. Loosing fret width is loosing width, whether from a bevel or a setback of the same distance.

I think I remember a similar discussion a while back, where a dummy neck is made that is less than 1/16" or so narrower than the actual neck, and fret slots are cut that are wide enough for the fret tangs to slip in. You'd then trim the fret flush to the neck edge, then cut the fret tang and then round the fret end. Then when you insert it into the real neck it would be set back a little less than 1/32" on each side. The problem would be, unless you set each one in perfect, when the neck is sighted down the edge, you'd see the munutest difference. Though you might be able to tap them into alignment...

I owned a neck made by Mike Shannon, of Charvel and Fender fame, that had probably the most perfect bullet-end frets I've seen on a Strat neck. Even though they were not set back from the edge, I didn't feel any discomfort playing it. I think if one was the type to play bluesy stuff with the thumb wrapped around a lot, it'd bother you more than if you had your thumb at the center of the back of the neck....

I'm sure there's many methods, but this is how I do it.

I've got a radiused block with a groove cut in it. I squeeze the block in a vice to hold the fret. I use a crowning file to round the end, looking from the bottom of the fret, then slightly round the top with a small file. After finishing one end I place the fret on the board and mark the length. I cut it slightly long, and sneak up the the final length with the crowning file. I've measured, and my final length is .010" shorter than the width of the board. I start at the wide end of the fingerboard, that way if I make a fret too short I just move it to the next slot. I use an optivisor so I can see precisely what I'm doing. It takes me ~10 minutes per fret after all other prep is done. I suspect Mario (and others) have quicker, more efficient methods than I do. I install frets pretty much last, after the guitar is finished, and the neck is installed. (old habit) It's probably easier to fret a board, before installing it on the neck. I've got to fret one next week. I'll try to take some pictures. I'm sure there's people who can look at my methods, and refine them.

I haven't "pre-rounded" my fret ends in about 6 or 8 years now. It seemed like a good idea at the time, but it was a lot of extra work that while it felt great to the player's left hand, some clients complained that when they sighted down the neck(IE: they were sniffing the end of the headstock, as I call it) the fret ends weren't all perfectly aligned. So screw 'em, I figured, and I haven't done it since.

Randy,

Mario,

When you were pre-rounding them, did you allow any set back from the edge until the start of the fret, or did the fret end run up to the very edge of the fretboard?

I think I still want to give this a try, and don't mind the extra work. I've made a couple jigs that I believe will quickly and accurately do each fret's length and positioning in the fret slot. (I'll post them once I've actually used them to do a finger board or two, to be sure they actually work first.)

I bevel and round the ends after they're all installed. Much quicker, and just as nice. StewMac make a great little fret-end file that makes this a breeze. Combined with their fret polishing wheels in a Dremel, the whole deal takes 5 to 10 minutes.

Since you wish to continue with the pre-radiused deal:

You will want yours set back from the edge just a bit, as the whole goal here is to not feel the fret ends at all. No need for any jigs; just pre-radius the fretwire very close to what the fretboard radius is, and cut and file the frets to length, then round-over each end. I'd use various grits of paper(180/220/320/600) on a soft-ish backing(leather works fine). There's a bit of technique involved, but it's a lot like rounding-over the ends of a bridge saddle; you'll get the hang of it quickly, so don't over-think it, and instead, just do it. Make a holder with 22 or 25 or whatever number of holes in it to hold your frets, so they stay organized while you work them and until you instal them.

Combined with their fret polishing wheels in a Dremel, the whole deal takes 5 to 10 minutes.

Mario, your speed is legendary, (I have seen your side bending videos) but I am having a hard time with 10 minutes for fret end finishing.

22 frets = 44 fret ends, 10 minutes = 600 seconds, 600 / 44 = 13.6

So say 14 seconds for each fret end ? (and that is including the final polish). And also in stainless steel?

That is rapid, dude ...

Being interested in rounded fret ends I have previously explored this subject. (Google and search around.) Many proponents recommend leaving 0.010" space between the fret end and the fretboard's edge. This would make the fret a total of .020" shorter than the board. The reasoning given for shortening the fret was to allow shrinkage of the fretboard over its life due to drying out.

IMHO, I would just have the fret come right to the fretboard's edge. Fret real estate is precious. This would allow for the maximum amount of fret space and therefore the maximum amount of string spacing without a string roll-off-the-edge problem. The "shrinkage" concern could be addressed when and if it occurs at some point well down the road.

1/32" space between the fret end and board edge? That is far too much space IMHO. Again, real estate for string spacing is just too valuable to give up that easily. My interest in the rounded frets to begin with was to increase fret real estate compared to the 35 degree bevel and dump that saved space into increased spacing between strings.

Ed

That is rapid, dude ...

10 minutes is likely on the slow end of the scale, too. I'm ADD, and rather impatient with repetitive tasks, so maybe that explains it?

I just stared at the clock for 14 solid seconds, and that IS a long time.

Wish I had a better video camera than my old still Canon; I'd make more of those types of videos. I believe it helps a lot of others when they see that a task doesn't have to take as long, or be as complicate as they suspected. I know fir sure that my hide glue video has convince many others that they too, -can- close a body with hide glue, without feeling rushed at all. Confidence goes a long way, and if there's one thing I have a good bit of, it's confidence(in the shop, at least).

I have been rounding mine before installing but I don't do a true semi-hemispherical anymore. I bought a cheap 8" grinder, took the covers off, reversed the rotation direction, and set it up so that one side has an 8" cardboard sharpening wheel on it with (I think) 400 grit carborundum on the surface and the other side has an 8" buffing wheel. I do the same process with Evo or standard fret wire. Haven't tried stainless yet.

I radius the wire so it will install about .020" proud of the board, cut the tang so that it indexes on the bass side of the fret board binding and then trim that end to length. I trim about 0.020" - 0.030" back from the edge. I use the carborundum wheel freehand to shape a rounded end (looking down) while putting an approximate 25 degree bevel in profile (therefore, not really semi-hemispherical). I do some cleanup with a file, polish it on the buffing wheel, do the other end, and then put it in a board with numbered holes so I'll know where to install it when I'm ready.

It takes a bit of a touch to shape them on the wheel but once you get used to it then it goes pretty quick. The hardest part is getting the length right. I always start with the long frets first so if (when) I cut one too short I can use it one or two frets further down.

It takes me about an hour now (the first one probably took me 3 hours) so I'm nowhere near as fast as Mario . Never had any comments from folks about fret-end spacing other than they look cool and play real smooth. I just finished a new neck for a 12-string electric and the owner came over to try it out the other night; he was real happy. I know I don't have any issues when playing on em; maybe some people do.

takes me about an hour now (the first one probably took me 3 hours) so I'm nowhere near as fast as Mario

That's about how long it took me to do them in that style, too. As you say, the trickiest, most time-consuming part is cutting and filing/sanding them to exact length.

I'm sure I could still be using them, and few would have ever commented on the ends not being all perfectly lined up, but it only took the one comment to turn me off; why should I spend more time doing something that few will notice or even appreciate and some will be negative toward? Instead, I refined my fret-end dressing technique(helped a lot by Stewmac's "safe edge" fine, with its really smooth and fine cut), which today looks just about the same as the pre-rounded fret ends, and feels just as good. The biggest factor in our fret ends feeling great is to make sure they don't protrude(obviously), and that there's no sharp points or edges, anywhere. When we're done, we should be able to wipe the edges of the fretboard, lengthwise and perpendicular, with something like a fine wool sweater without it ever snagging. When your fret ends pass that test, it doesn't matter what they look like, they'll feel as nice as possible to the player, if he/she can feel them at all.

Funny how ideas evolve. My latest StewMac order has one of those "safe edge" files in it. Should be here tomorrow.

I actually think the Stew Mac safe edge file is a little bit too coarse. It leaves marks that don't sand out with 320 grit which is all I use on frets.

I found a finer safe edge on eBay that works better for me.

This is the file I'm talking about. I just use it for the ends, and don't need to do any sanding before finishing the job with the polishing wheel/burr..

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Special_tools_for_Fretting/Fret_End_Dressing_File.html

Here are the polishing wheels. These are Da Bomb for polishing dfrets. I only use the extra fine, as the other is a bit too aggressive. Only warning I can give is to have a steady hand, and never, ever, stop moving across the fret, and only go across each fret once! If you dwell, it will create a hot spot and your nicely leveled fret will be level no more... Practice with a few dry runs to get the hang of moving across each fret in one fairly quick yet smooth "pass". Do all the frets, then go back and give them a second "pass". Shouldn't need more than 2 to 3 passes.

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Fretting_supplies/Polishing_and_abrasives/Ceramic_Fret_Polishing_Wheels.html

Yes, that is the file I am talking about as well.

Randy,

It's a Coco build I think, so you would have to go back a couple pages to find.

Mario, I have the 3 corner fret dressing file (the medium 8" one) from Stewmac. (http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Special_tools_for_Fretting/3-Corner_Fret_Dressing_Files.html) which has safe ground corners. Is there any specific advantage to the file you're using or would the 3 corner one do just as well?

The fret file Mario points to in post #18 appears to have been photographed while being held upside down. That could be confusing for someone not familiar with it's intended use.

Barry, is it possible that StewMac sent a file that has the wrong tooth pitch making it too coarse. I use mine for fret ends and it seems to work especially good for getting rid of the sharp corners where the fret meets the wood as well as on up the radius.

Mario, I understand what you mean about the white extra-fine polishing wheels from StewMac. They are really hard and need to be dressed true to keep from bouncing. I gave up on them and went back to softer wheels but maybe need to give them a try once more using your technique.

I bought the file when it first came out so they could have subsequently improved it. But the one I found on eBay was much finer and does a great job.

I looked at my little file again last night, and can't imagine one being much finer, so I agree that you may have been sent the wrong one, or that they've changed to this finer one.

I use the file with both the rounded edge down, and sometimes with the flat side down, so I don't think there's a bad way to photograph it?

And finally, yes, the wheels need to be dressed; I use a little needle-shaped diamond file, held in a vice, to true the wheel and give it a good radius, and I hold the Dremel at a downward angle when doing it, so that it will be correct when dressing the frets. My first couple attempts at using these wheels left me frustrated and I'd given up on them for well over a year when I found them again one day, and gave them another try, and that's when I found that using just one, quick, light pass at a time was the big trick. And try to "roll" off the ends with it, but not so far that you mar the neck's finish. I also approach each fret from a different direction for each 'pass', meaning that on the first pass, I'll start, at the first fret, from the fret's left to its right, second fret from its right to its left, alternating all the way to the last fret, then for the second 'pass', I'll do the first fret from its right to its left, 2nd from its left to its right, etc.... This seems to both shape and polish the fret ends equally. Oh, and I tape some leather "guards" on either side of the fretboard, at the body, just in case I should slip!

I too gave up on those wheels a while ago since I was getting unpredictable results. I'll have to practice with those again and see if I can make it work.

It's worth the effort, trust me! As soon as I got the hang of it, I purchased 2 more sets of 6, in case they discontinued them! Couldn't live without 'em now....

And again, only the white ones(extra fine, or super fine or whatever they're called). The others are too aggressive, IMO.