French Polish: Quick method? - created 01-07-2007

Walsh, Michael - 01/07/2007.19:39:51

I'm not exactly new to the finer points of French polishing but I am at a loss as to how some people can (or at least they claim to) build a decent finish in a couple of days. Most times it takes me 3 weeks minimum. How do they do it?

I personally take some time to finish a guitar. It is usually because of time constraints. If I try to finish too fast, I sometimes have problems with pieces of the finish pulling off. Some times it takes a few days for the pore filling to set up well, and not have any problem with the pores sinking back in. This is really just a few days however.

Shame you weren't around about a month ago, good thread on just this. It is more than can be explained in a thread, though, It took a long seminar and some hands-on for me to get it.

I just did my guitar about a month ago. It took me two weeks just to do the top. This was my first try and it came out to satisfaction. The back/sides were not porefilled, but I like the way it came out too. That probably cut out a few days at least for me.

There are so many variables; who knows what is the shortest amount of time to give it? ~ hard to say!

Jim B.

I know I can get a decent shine on a guitar in one or two days of FP, but that shine never seems to last. The shellac takes some time to dry completely, and tends to look really thin and dull after is shrinks back.

Marshall Brune seems to be able to complete a finish in a few days, but I don't know how he gets it to flash off completely in that time.

I think Marshall Brune was one of the names I've come across in respect to my question. He wasn't the only one though, so presumably it is possible to FP start to finish in 2 or 3 days!

But as Chuck mentioned, just because it is "finished", and looks good for 1 day, does not mean that it is appropriate.

You can finish as fast and quickly as you want, let it sit around for a week or two, and then work it some more.

The trouble I have, is that once I string a guitar up, I really don't like to strip it apart and work on finish any further. I finish the body and neck separately, and finish the top before putting the bridge on. I really don't like touching up the top with a fingerboard and bridge in place. It is a lot more work, and never looks as neat and tidy.

..... so how long should it take me to FP my double bass?

I suspect the surface area is about five times as much as an acoustic guitar, so about 5 times as long.

Even on a banjo, with far less surface to polish than a guitar, it typically takes me a couple of weeks of polishing to get it done. I can do it faster, but not to a level that I'm satisfied with.

Dave

I've concluded that FP might be the perfect finish for someone with an obsessive/compulsive personality. One can put it on, put on more, take some off, take it all off, or just work on it as time and inclination allows. And it gets exponentially more complicated when the body, neck, and top are made from different wood species.

But when it's done right to your eye and fingertip, it's perfect, more or less, if you know what I mean.

Mike, are you sure you want French polish on a double bass?

David, I think he'll figure it out, eventually.

I think it sound like a great idea. Of course, I have been accused of over doing the FP thing.

I thought it was a joke.

Chuck- Actually, I was intended to be a joke, I forgot the ...

Mike, are you sure you want French polish on a double bass?

David- I have known a few players who had their basses FP'd. None of them did the work themselves, however. A colleague had his Maggini bass french polished many years ago. It looked fantastic and really brought out the character of that old Italian bass.

FP might be the perfect finish for someone with an obsessive/compulsive personality

And your point is....?

But when it's done right to your eye and fingertip, it's perfect, more or less, if you know what I mean.

Marshall Brune does claim to be able to French Polish in 1 day, actually 3 given that he lets it harden after completion. I did read a post on a forum where someone had seen one of his guitars and had first hand experience of a course that he gives in French Polishing. Seems that his finish holds up over time.

I know that he uses very,very little oil. I also know that some people can polish without using any oil. Time to experiment.

But when it's done right to your eye and fingertip, it's perfect, more or less, if you know what I mean.

I agree. If I was still playing alot, I'd have already FP'd my bass. There was a bass luthier in Ann Arbor in the 70's who French polished a few basses. My present interest has shifted to early music though and I'm working on a renaissance lute which is progressing very slowly. I may get around to the bass sometime though but will want to get a couple smaller instruments under my belt first since I haven't done much with French polishing. I know it takes elbow grease and diligence.

I french polished a couple basses. I don't do it like a guitar though. First I varnish the instrument and let that cure. Then apply the french polish in more of "polishing" method. A lot of violins are polished that way. Some of the formula include the usual shellac, but add some other resins like Sandarac and Benzoin.

Marshall Brune does claim to be able to French Polish in 1 day, actually 3 given that he lets it harden after completion. I did read a post on a forum where someone had seen one of his guitars and had first hand experience of a course that he gives in French Polishing. Seems that his finish holds up over time.

That was me, most likely. It's not his technique, but his father's. Brune has, for example, Segovia's guitar that Brune made for him. Besides the back, which was destroyed by Segovia's sweat, the guitar was fine. Brune plays daily a flamenco guitar which he built and Marshall polished was quite young. Again, the guitar looks fine.

I have a plate of padauk that I polished in that course, now a year and a half ago. I did it in a very short period of time - half an hour of work? The next day we buffed it out on a drill press. I'd post a picture of it now, but I am running an experiment with a varnish over french polish, so how it looks now isn't necessarily a fair comparison. In reality, it is - it was shiny before I varnished it, and it is still shiny now that I've buffed out the varnish. The only negative aspect was the pores showed. But, I filled those with oil and rottenstone, to emulate an old technique, and the pores are

supposed

to show after awhile with that system. I wouldn't use it for new construction, but certainly for a repair to a historic piece.

Perhaps I should dig out a guitar I polished just after the course, and post a photo? Seems like a waste of Deb's RAM. The upshot: the guitar is still shiny.

RE-use of oil.

Every now and then a comment is made indicating that you can french polish without oil. I suppose it could be done, but it is part of the standard technique. I don't want an inexperienced builder trying to polish without oil.

It is used to lubricate, and applied after the spit coats are on. I use some with pore filling, and with building up the finish.

If too much is used, you end up with a greasy instrument (I use mineral oil.) If too little is used, you get a sticky pad, which eventually will pull pieces of finish off, or finish will stick to the surface inappropriately.

At the GAL convention last June, I was chatting with Marshal Brune, and Cindy Burton came strolling by (I'm not kidding) so I asked her about how she FP'ed without oil. Marshal was curious too. She couldn't explain any particular technique, we all agreed that it was all about "pad feel". When you get into FP, it is a kind of Zen thing, and you "become the pad". You know what it needs and you know what to expect after you charge the pad and start on the surface again. It's hard to explain. Well, she has just developed enough "feel" that she can work without oil. I hit long stretches where I can work without oil, but I can't do the whole job without oil. It takes practice.

That all sounds kinda' funny, but it's true.

What Chuck says is right, it is hard to explain. When you are polishing along and the pad begins to drag, there is the decision to be made, do you recharge with shellac and risk a blotch with an over-wet pad? or get a drop of oil and put off the agony? If you are courageous you can keep recharging and never use oil. The essence of what Marshall teaches is in "maintaining" a dry pad, and the proper pressure and speed of the wipe. Does it sound like I know what I'm talking about? Ha ha ha ha ha...

That is why is called an "art". I don't want any one to be put off by all of this discussion, thinking it is too hard to learn. There are just some parts of the process which you have to do to understand what we are all talking about. I don't think any of us disagree. We all probably do the same thing in a similar manner.

If I recall correctly, a good part of the Brune technique relied on a much thinner cut of shellac, I think it ended up he was using about a quarter pound cut, which allowed the alcohol to flash off more quickly as it doesn't have as "thick" a layer of shellac to have to evaporate through.

I tried this when I got back from GAL, and it did eliminate a lot of the problems I had been having when using the usual 2 pound cut.

I also second what Steve and the others are saying. You just "Gots ta pay your dues" by spending some time at doing it. Every piece of scrap in the shop could benefit from a FP. And keep reminding yourself that you aren't going to do anything with FP that isn't simple to undo if you mess up.

One thing that does strike me as being a little strange is the so called 'spiriting off'. Why? I can understand the need for it after all the bodying coats are done but what is wrong with leaving it on the surface ready for the next bodying session?

The concept is that you are removing some of the excess oil.

I never really bother. I use mineral oil. For the longest time, I have wondered whether it is in the finish, the wood or what. After watching some of my finishes for a few years, I think it evaporates away.

The so called "reactive" oils may not evaporate away. I really wonder what they actually do. Whether they combine in a chemical reaction with the molecules of the shellac, or they form a little of their own finish interspersed somewhere in the molecular structure of the finish.

The actual physical process of rubbing the surface with the pad and alcohol may smooth the surface and get rid of ridges.

The actual physical process of rubbing the surface with the pad and alcohol may smooth the surface and get rid of ridges.

When I spirit off, that is what I am trying for. It really seems to help. It gets rid of the oil, and also gives me a better surface.

I use the walnut oil, and I have also used lemon oil which is really just mineral oil with the scent added. But the thing is, whenever I sand the surface of shellac I have done this way- even a very long time after I applied it- I can smell the oil and that proves to me that it is a part of the finish itself.

Mark--Are you using the oil as a lubricant for sanding also? (I use water myself.)

No, I use water.

Ty it yourself, Steve! Test this on a piece of scrap, and then later wetsand or dry sand it....you'll smell it strongly.

I don't have any lemon oil around, and I can't smell the olive oil! (I will have to buy some.)

Nobody has said a word about applicator pads. What about these?

Since I'm about to french polish No.3, I've been following this thread and experimenting a bit.

I bought a microfiber wiping cloth as is now commonly available at the supermarket, and I've cut it into 4" squares. I think this material has potential for use as the outer cover of a pad, but I found that it's necessary to selvage the cut edges by flaming them with a cigarette lighter.

And before applying any shellac, I think that they might be good for wiping away fine sawdust, and I understand that they're washable.

Might be great Bob, but it does have to be pretty abrasion resistant. I go though T-shirt material pretty fast, and that microfiber stuff seems kinda whimpy. Try it and let us know.

Marshal Brune uses linen. I've seen it recommended elsewhere as well. I've not been able to find pure, tight weave linen to use.

I'm in a cotton T_shirt material rut myself.

For the inside of the pad, I use cast padding material (medical-synthetic material).

For the outside, T-shirt material.

I did buy some linen from a place which sold supplies specifically for French polishing. I did not like it. It was too loose of a weave. It left more ridges on the surface of the finish than the cotton T-shirt material.

I have watched for some cheap linen material in second hand stores, but never found anything that I liked.

Don't underestimate the importance of having a nice inner material. For pore filling, it is not important, but later when building the surface, a nice absorbent pad will hold and release the shellac in a nice controlled manner. After some use, it gets all compressed and will not release material as well.

I even think that T-shirt material varies a lot. I recently had trouble with using what seemed like a cheap type of cotton, it definately stated 100% cotton on the label. I've switched to one that feels a lot smoother, almost silky to the touch but again it states 100% cotton. Just seems that the swirls and lines are much less prominent now.

Presenting a fresh piece of fabric to the work always seems to require less oil. I tend to move the outer covering fairly frequently so that a fresh cotton surface is in contact with the work, otherwise it can get very sticky and liable to 'grab' the finish. For the inner pad I've been using pure wool but that seems increasingly difficult to get hold of here in the UK, at least as far as buying it as clothing material. I'll try the medical stuff.

Steve: I'm a little unsure as to exactly when you are supposed to form the straight lines. I've been forming the circles over a complete area (eg.the back)and then repeating this 3 or 4 times before letting it dry, only doing the straight lines at the very end of the session. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be doing the straight lines in-between each application of the circles?

What straight lines? (You read the Milburn tutorial!!)

I don't really worry about straight lines, but I do set up patterns so that I try to cover the entire surface evenly. I think the idea of the straight lines is just to be sure you are getting all of the areas evenly covered.

I do purposely swipe around the edge of the surface I am working. This does 2 things. If I have slopped over a little, this wipes up any excess material on the edge before it hardens completely. In addition, it builds up more material on the edge of the guitar. This is an area which will have more wear.

Regarding circles and straight swipes. What I've found is that after loading the pad, the circles leave ridges that follow the roundy-round pattern (regardless of how fine the cover cloth is). If I switch to straight swipes with the grain at the right point in the pad's "dryness", the straight swipes can burnish over the roundy-round ridges. This leaves a much-MUCH more smooth surface, and maintaining a smooth surface is the name of the game in FP. Start smooth, maintain smooth, finish smooth. Smooth smooth smooth.

I feel like Dr. Seuss!

As to pad's innards. I cut up a pure wool sock 7 years ago and made 6 or 8 balls from that. They are still working great today. Probably better than when they were new. I just soak them in booze between uses. Luckily I still have the other sock for the next decade.

I break a lot of rules in my FP methods, and here's another: I use paper towel for the pad's "innards"...

Keep in mind that this finish method was developed before most of what we have today existed; they used what they had, and developed a successful system around that. Don't be afraid to improvise if you feel the need; this is a very forgiving finishing method.

I think wool has particularly useful properties in the FP. I notice when washing a wool sweater that it comes out of the washer very light and already almost dry, where a cotton sweater is heavy from the moisture it is holding. A paper towel sweater would be mush. The wool fibers don't hold as much liquid. That's why hikers wear wool socks I guess, the moisture is wicked away. I did try the pure wool sold in the Dr. Scholl's foot care department, those fibers leaked out on me a lot. You can buy wool material at the fabric store, or just buy some new wool socks.

the moisture is wicked away

Yes, great for socks and sweaters, but this is what bugged me about it in FP. I'd load the pad, and then the shellac was gone. It just wicks away from the surface. I'd have to load and load until it got to a point where I could squeeze some out. Not good. It obviously works, as its the traditional method, but I've been french polishing for over ten years(still today, about half my clients request a FP neck finish that i offer as a option), and today, I prefer the paper towel much more than wool. Also doesn't shed any fibers like the wool sometimes did if I wore through the cover. Paper fibers just dissolve and become an invisible part of the finish if I do wear through the cover.

Don't knock it 'til you try it.

For pad covers, I have had no trouble finding pure linen fabric made from flax at good fabric stores; it is not expensive. Linen has the advantage of not shedding lint at all. Sooner or later, other fabrics like wool or cotton or blends will give you a hairy finish. This might increase or decrease demand from various types of clients. ;o)

So far, the microfiber fabric has promise, at least in one direction. The applicator pad that I have made creates lines in one direction, but it does well in the other. And it seems to conduct the fluid shellac either into or out of the pad pretty well, by a squeeze or relaxation of the fingers.

But every once in a while, I get weird notions and do something unexpected. I made up a pad of the microfiber material and wool, and then stuck to the hook & loop pad of my recently acquired Fein oscillating sander that wiggles at 21k osc/sec.

I certainly lack the experience and finesse necessary for a fine FP finish, but I think that the unholy combination of the microfiber cloth, ragg-wool, and the Fein tool just might work, and work very well.

I think that the rapid oscillations prevent the creation of a single 'sticking point' on the pad, and so this helps prevent streaking caused by too much solvent or too much resin. Another thought is that the tool does not create excessive heat that evaporates the alcohol too quickly, Also, it runs very smooth in the hand, and so one can feel the interaction of the pad with the wood.

I'll try to prepare a stick of spruce, and a stick of walnut at ~.125" thickness, and then finish one face by hand and the other with this method. And I'll post some pictures when they're done (if ever they're done, if you know what I mean ;)).

I've used paper towels for the whole pad when I'm in a hurry. So far, so good, as long as I put a fresh layer on before it starts to shred. I only use it for spot repairs, though.

When I'm doing a "proper" job, I use old linen sheet for my cover, and orthopedic fleece as the inner. And, so far my favorite lubricant is sewing machine oil.

Still, I have a lot to learn, and have yet to FP a full instrument; small furniture pieces, yes. Salt grains supplied, gratis, on request.