Cardboard dust collector piping [Picture] - created 09-19-2004

Lambert, Alain - 09/19/2004.14:52:00
Full time retired, part time luthier.

I just purchased a small dust collector. The single stage type.

I am installing this now and want to keep it on a low budget.

Some time ago, a member here mentioned using cardboard roll (those used in carpets rolls) as piping. If he still around I would like to know what he used as fittings. Also is there a concern with static charges and the cardboard getting on fire? I guess is should not be worst that plastic.

Anyone has a good idea for blast gates ?

Thanks,

Alain, I think that for a small installation, cheap sewer pipe and fittings would be much easier, and certainly cheaper in terms of time spent to build it. With regard to electrical grounding for the discharge of static electricity, it's not difficult to do, although I'm not convinced as to the necessity for it, if the system is not running for extended times, say 10s of minutes.

A very good idea for you to consider, would be to build a cyclone separator to place inline before your dust collector. It's not difficult or expensive, and certainly worth the effort.

not convinced as to the necessity for it,

I won't comment any further, so if you want to argue this, I won't even respond, but.... GROUND THE DAMNED THING.

Metal ductwork, available at any heat and ventilation place, is both great, and cheaper than plastic pipe. Available in all proper sizes that we need, and easy to work with. Plastic 4" blast gates are so cheap as to not be worth the time to even contemplate making your own.

I move vast amounts of material, and don't have, nor plan on adding, a cyclone.

Really, is metal cheaper than plastic? I doubt it, but I'll go look around, because I'll replace the plastic if it's reasonable. About the grounding issue, I guess it's like putting lightning rods on your buildings: if you need 'em, then you need 'em. As for the cyclone, it's sure easier to empty the bin (a 30 gal steel can with a fitted lid that can be carried outside) than it is to fiddle around with the fabric bags, by far. Also, I haven't disturbed the filter bags in months, and I doubt that I'll need to do that anytime soon.

Mario, I'm sure I am not the only one who finds your dismissal of the cyclone a tad strange, since you are normally at the cutting edge when it comes to machinery .

As Bob says above it is a hell of a lot easier (and healthier) to empty the bin than to mess about with fabric bags, don't you think ?

I wouldn't be without mine now.

Metal duct work is a lot cheaper around here at least. It is harder to get a good seal as you have that snap together seam. I've placed a flame up by it and it does leak but not enough to worry about.

I guess you guys do allot of planing. I can go a year before I need to empty my bottom bags(on the to-do list for this week, in fact...). They are 24"x48" and are about 3/4 full right now. Sure, a cyclone would be easier, but for the little convenience it would be for me, I can't justify the extra space.... Besides, 90% of the bag's contents is fine to extra fine dust that would go right past the cyclone, anyhow.

My brother, the cabinet maker who does much planing, on the other hand, really needs one.

Oh, and the garbage can with the plastic "cyclone" lid isn't what I'd need, anyhow(and not what I envisioned as a "cyclone"). My system has a 7" inlet: I would need a real cyclone, one that is about 8 feet high.....

Weigh your needs, act accordingly....

Plastic sewer and 4" metal duct are about the same at about $1 per foot. The fitting are surprisingly less expansive in plastic. Since I have tools in both end of my L shaped shop (basement) I will need around 60 feet of duct plus up to 8 gates, Ts, elbows, etc. if I want everything to be covered and have some spare.

I built a cyclone... ~$100 (sheet metal.. solder and beer)... and used a 2hp grizzly unit to drive it. Plumbed the whole shop with 6" sheet metal pipe (HVAC) main lines and 4" drops and put gates near all the tools... Use a long ranger to switch it on and off when needed... Works great. Making the cyclone wasn't hard and took me two weekends to do the whole thing. I pop riveted the pipe together and used aluminum tape to seal the joints. Most expensive parts were the filters I used (Penn State) and the Grizzly unit.

Trick with a plumbed in system is keep the volume of air up. 6" pipe stepping down to 4" drops really lets the thing breath. Also.. filter setup is crucial... You can't suck more air then you can pump thru a filter. Given a choice... I'd of moved the unit into another room... as it is a little loud.

One more thing... Very little dust gets to the filters... They trap something like .5 microns and keep the dust from blowing around. It's quite suprising how much fine dust ends up in the can. Heavy chunks rattle around in the cyclone but fall down when you turn it off.

Nothing better to have with planers and jointers... Also... works ok with the table saw... you still get material coming off the top of the saw... they make gizmos for it... but it looks cumbersome. Still have to sweep up but your not standing in dust and shavings all the time. I'm a bit messey... when I work. With a central system you feel compelled to clean up. This setup helps me keep it cleaner... and I have less of a dust coating on everything all the time.

Alain, with 60' of pipe, you will need 5" to 6" mains. This is where metal really out prices plastic.....

Ed, that is quite the unit! Can you explain what a "Long ranger" is? I need a way to turn my collector on and off remotely, it's in the next room along with my cyclone.

I have one of those floor sweep attachments, and i really like that, it's fun to sweep up.

Long ranger is a receiver and a remote control. You can get them at many places... I got mine at Penn State and use a 220V system... although you can also get a 110V. You have to keep track of the remote and flip it on before you start the machine. There are other types out there and I think Rockler sells something.

If you want to get really fancy (I was tempted) there is a device which goes in your fuse box. You have to have all your machines on the same circuit loop... When you switch on a tool the dust collector automatically turns on. More work then I felt like wiring. Remote switches work ok for me... You can see it in my pic... just right and high of the cyclone. You plug the cyclone into it and the reciever into the wall circuit.

In one of the GAL publications I saw where someone had built a series of wooden cams and levers that had pull stirngs at each machine, and through mechanical action would push the switch at the dust collector. A cool, cheap, non-electrical "remote". I'll have to dig that one up.....

Penn State also sells microswitch activated blast gates. Whenever you open a gate at the maching the dust collector automagically comes on. I saw them in a catalog they sent me recently. If you don't have a lot of gates they are not really that much more than the remote.

All gates must be closed for the vacuum to turn off though. But at least you don't have to keep track of the remote this way.

Alain, with 60' of pipe, you will need 5" to 6" mains. This is where metal really out prices plastic.....

My filter only has a 4" inlet. May be I am too ambitious !!

I'm afraid so. I may be wrong, but you'll likely not pull enough volume and pressure to do what you want to. You need to have enough power to keep the material suspended in the ductwork while travelling, and the longer the ductwork, the more friction there is.

I'd call the manufacturer and have a talk with them. They know their system better than I.....

Alain

If you plan to stick with the straight single stage unit... be careful with the size of the chunks you suck through it... Everything must pass thru the impeller and a 2x2 chunk of wood will beat up the fan blades pretty well. Most have a little screen right at the fan housing to stop the big chunks...don't run it without it in place. I'm always suprised at the size of some of the wood that goes into my unit... (on a cyclone only fine material gets to the blades) I've often accidently sucked up parts I had to retrieve out of the can. Most metal items won't suck through as the weight to surface area makes it harder to get them airborne.

Most have a little screen right at the fan housing to stop the big chunks...don't run it without it in place.

Good point! I do not think there is one on mine, but I will surely install a 1" screen as a precaution.

I will make a test next weekend. I will lay about 30' of pipe and see how it suck at the other end.

Most of my tools are within 20' of reach, but I have a lathe at the other end of the shop that I would like to reach as well as I use it regularly as a disc sander.

While the easiest to implement, not all dust collectors have the material going through the impeller.

For a serious study of dust collection issues and methodology, google for "Bill Pentz" "Cyclone Dust Collector Research" (he sells kits and stuff or I would just link).

Also check out Oneida. Their site can help you figure out ducting, horsepower etc.

Peace,

Sanaka

You have to keep track of the remote

I glued magnet srips on mine and stick them on the machines...at eye level :)

Larry, GREAT idea. I never really liked the belt clip.

Alain, Sanaka has started you on a research world full of differing opinions based on similar foundations. In addition to Sanaka's references (the folks at Oneida know about Bill's site, we'll leave it at that), "Woodshop Dust Control" by Sandor Nagyszalanczy is a pretty good reference. Penn State just came out with a new 14" cyclone.

After researching, you may be feeling a little 'inadequate'? You'll find yourself justifying the NEED for a full 3hp cyclone, especially with runs as long as yours.

In my little space in the middle of the ocean, shipping is a problem for motors and impellers, so I just bought a Jet DC19 with the canisters (overkill at first). Suffice it to say I'm glad ALL of that dust in the bags aren't in my lungs. Aloha.

Does anybody else find it wonderful that "Woodshop Dust Control" was authored by a guy named "Sandor"?

Update:

I made 8 4" blast gate on the model found in the link Sanaka gave.

4" metal ventilation elbows and Ts just fit nicely in the tubes. I should start put that all together during next weekend if "the list" is not too long

Mr Lambert. just a quick note if you haven't finished your system. I had carpet poles in a system and found out the hard way the trubbles your heading for. the poles are made of spiraled paper and the vacuum and friction well soon enoff unraveail the poles from the inside and jam. all so the cardboard retains moisture and found dust hardened in the seams that allowed the cerint to help unraveail the inside of the tube. I live at the beach so it is damper here and you may not have the same out come I did but sooner or later it will begin to unraveail.

There is light in that tunnial though. being in the flooring trade, iv found that most carpet mills are now using recycled soda bottle poles. there of lighter weight so you may need to support them better. they produce very low static if any . thay fit in to one and other nicly and duct tape sticks well to them. allso iv found that meatle duct connectors fit just as well as cpvc fittings or black drain fittings. the only tool you'll need is a sharp knife. If the carpet guys bend them before you get them, you can take a foot long section , split it long was and sleeve it at the bend with some duct tape. I love the stuff , Im even using it to grow string beans and peppers in the poles hydroponicly. to big though for a Diggery Doo :P

Robert, are you related to Al Dodson, by any chance?

Thomas: That's just too funny. Thanks for the laff!

Thanks for the warning Robert, but unfortunately it is too late. I have all my carpet poles installed (finished yesterday). So far it is OK, but I can imagine that this could fail someday. Well, if this happen then I will replace with metal ducking. I have already all metal Ts and elbows.

As installed this is quite satisfactory for a hobby shop. I taped all joints and with all gates closed I can starve the blower (meaning it is airtight)

Mine did fine for three years then I move south and am now building a smaller shop with better climet control. the shop with the cardboards poles was and old eastern shore chicken house with concert floors. (space out the gonads) but had a time spring and fall keeping the humidity down. seamed the floor was the problem. this August I went to dismantil the system and turned it on one last time just to discover what happened, it hadn't run in maybe two years and maybe had it run from time to time it would had servied.

Al Dodson ? I knew an Al Dodson back in DC . he was a bluegrass player, but no relation. if it's who I think it is ask him what we did with Jhon Duffy(Seldom Sean) while he was building his signature mandolin.

Hi Guys... I've watched this for a bit and decided to chime in now. A couple months ago, I responded to a fire at a cabinet shop. The cause was eventually isolated to the dust collection system, specificaly the collection bag. The operator har run some pawn shop chizels on his disc sander to start putting edges on them. The sparks or whatever you want to call them smoldered in the bag and lit the contents. Having seen that, I don't think I'd be too keen to add a potentially flamable piece of ductwork to my shop.... Your mileage may vary.... Scott.

OK this is all installed now, thanks to all who contributed. I am waiting for the 4" flexible (that IS expensive) to arrive to hook the equipments. Anyone has a good idea for hooking the table saw?