Historical Renaissance recorder boring technique

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Andy Barnhart
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Re: Historical Renaissance recorder boring technique

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Greg Robinson wrote:
CarvedTones wrote:A little late to contribute, but when...
Hi "CarvedTones",
Please note that we require the use of real full (first & last) names, and do not accept aliases or "handles". Please let us know your name either here or in a private message so that we can update your username and login details for you (you are not able to make these changes to your account yourself).
Thanks.
I think I just screwed it up worse. I used to be a member, then could not find my ID so I created a new one and then I just created another with my name, Andy Barnhart, which it appears at least one person here knows. So now if you try to rename this one you will run into that one. Sorry; just delete either one and make the remaining one my real name..
-Andy
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Andy Barnhart
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Re: Historical Renaissance recorder boring technique

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Stephen Bacon wrote:Hey, Andy, welcome,
Yeah spoon bits can wallow as well, especially under power of a high speed drill. If you think on making one piece recorders of length perhaps Dana's finding are related to this, of course at a slower speed. It still may indicate that at least the 'voicing' was drilled first from the beak side and the main bore from the bell side.
I am boring one piece blanks on a lathe - moving blank, non moving bit. It's a mini VS with bed extension intended primarily for spindle turning and low speed is still over 700 RPM. I am now using a carbide tip self centering gun drill bit and I can do a one piece C blank in one go with no wallowing. But when I was was first trying to do this, I was using spade bits and spiral boring bits that weren't quite long enough by the time you take into account the little bit of extra on each end of the blank (I generally need to trim at least .5" from each end) and the bearing center, the 1' long bits I was using would not make it all the way through. I found that I could drill from each end with reasonable accuracy and the holes met but not perfectly. So I would purposefully use a smaller spade bit to remove the edge. It actually did not seem to cause a sonic problem, but the dowel would catch slightly when cleaning/oiling and if my poor (but developing) skills on windway/labium cutting had not already alerted you that you had a low quality instrument in your hands, the ledge in the bore certainly would. So I would wallow it away. But then the tuning would be off.

BTW, some of the woods I noticed this in are not traditional woods for recorders. I know that most of my early instruments are learning exercises, so I use some readily available alternatives like sweetgum and poplar. The sweetgum is particularly soft for a "hard wood" and wallowed quite easily. I am finally about to switch to only using more appropriate species. I have noticed that maple is very unforgiving if you get off line - it binds bits instead of wallowing.
-Andy
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Greg Robinson
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Re: Historical Renaissance recorder boring technique

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No worries Andy, you had not made any posts with the other account, so I have deactivated it, and updated this account with your name.
Thanks.
MIMForum staff member - Melbourne, Australia
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Andy Barnhart
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Re: Historical Renaissance recorder boring technique

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BTW, this is what a medieval recorder in sweetgum looks like:

Image

Stringy wood; lots of undercutting about to be done. A little quiet and oddly reedy sounding. This one will likely be my practice instrument for a while.

Another locally harvested wood I have made some with is mulberry. This D whistle/chanter sounds more like a recorder (and my recorder sounds like a clarinet - sigh) but it is a nice wood to work with:
Image
-Andy
Yuri Terenyi
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Re: Historical Renaissance recorder boring technique

Post by Yuri Terenyi »

I would just like to make one comment on the instruments in the photos.
In practically all historical recorders, from Medieval to Baroque, the window is cut in the quarter-sawn side, not the slab-sawn one, as in the ones above. The reason is simple: wood tends to split very much easier on the slab-sawn side.
Mulberry, by the way has been used for reed woodwinds, at least. If it wasn't so porous, it would be quite good choice.
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Re: Historical Renaissance recorder boring technique

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Thanks for that, Yuri. I was a little too hung up on the aesthetics. With the rising rings on top, it looks very symmetric. I am just finishing up the boring on about 25 blanks of mostly maple, cherry and walnut, but I also have a couple of more mulberry in the mix. While I plan to do them all as "historic", the mulberry is definitely more attractive to the sword and sorcery LARP crowd than the SCA or other re-enactors who insist on more accuracy. It's a magical golden whistle. ;) Anyway, I am hoping that before I finish this batch I will have learned enough to actually start making some marketable instruments. So far, I have been giving them away to kids of friends and friends of my kids (earning their parents undying gratitude, no doubt - at least I don't give them drums :lol: ).
-Andy
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Re: Historical Renaissance recorder boring technique

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Andy Barnhart wrote:I am finally about to switch to only using more appropriate species.
Kind of a tangent, but a slight retraction - I can't help trying a few variations. After all, turning and carving is a hobby I want to transition into a semi-retirement hobby in a few years (in my 50s now) but it is still a hobby and I am allowed to have fun with it. So while most of the next batch will be straight grained clear maple, cherry and walnut, there will still be a few wild cards in the mix.

And a tangent on my tangent - which is more authentic? Wood I harvested by riving blanks from a locally felled tree and drying them myself or correct species (maybe - there are wide variations in what we call maple or cherry) wood that I purchased and was originally sourced who knows where?

Anyway, I should have said "mostly" instead of "only"...
-Andy
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Re: Historical Renaissance recorder boring technique

Post by Stephen Bacon »

As you are wildcrafting your wood , why not just split it into billets rather than saw it. You will get less runout. Just use straight grained pieces to turn, of course the more figure the better. The idea of a turner sawing billets to turn is something quite modern. Aside of the splitting factor It is also much easier to cut your voicing and get better results on the quarter. It is the most common and stays true the longest, but I have many examples from many cultures of slab voicing especially on small folk instruments such as yours, even have a few in the round.
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Re: Historical Renaissance recorder boring technique

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When it comes to species, Andy,where are you? I mean, which part of the world? Thing is, with historical recorders the situation was that they were the art instruments of their times. Ergo- the best possible woods, meaning boxwood for the best and generally the smaller sizes, and hard maple for the larger ones. (I don't think it's easy to find a straight boxwood piece 2.5 meters long for a great contrabass recorder.) Later, of course, imported exotics came into it, though boxwood remained the preferred option until the end of recorder-making times, at least for the sopranos and altos.
On the other hand, I cannot imagine the settlers in, say, Latin America, importing boxwood for the instruments from Europe. At least not in large quantities. They certainly didn't do it for the vihuelas. Instead of importing high-grade spruce and whatnot they turned to local cedars and local whatnots. So in a very real way there is a lot to say for using locally available timbers. The main thing is to select the ones that do have the right characteristics. This mainly got to do with density, hardness, tendency not to expand/shrink too much and the like.
By the way, I mentioned the quarter-sawn thing only superficially, of course. One other characteristic of this is that the windway contracts/expands far less noticeably than with slab-sawn windways. (And that applies to the block, too. Quarter-sawn is best.) Depending on timber species the difference between shrinkage quarter-wise versus slab-wise can be as much as 3% vs 12%. This is extreme, but it does exist. (do't remember what species, though) More normally it will be around 5-6% vs 9-10%. So to have the windway more predictable means quarter-sawn. I have a Moeck Renaissance soprano given to me that is a point in the case. It is slab-sawn (beats me why they do it, you'd think Moeck of all things should know better) and the labium (the edge) simply sunk below the blockline. It still works in the first octave ( actually, not too badly), but in the second octave there are problems. You still can get all the notes, but they are rather on the breathy side, and not very well in tune.
With folk pipes the situation is somewhat different, though. I'm not familiar with many traditions, but am with Hungarian and associated ones (Roumanian, Slovakian) In these a rather pronounced breathiness is actually expected and appreciated. In these traditions the "pure" sound of the "art" recorder is deemed just too boring. Which is why these pipes invariably have very large cut-ups, and rather generous windway cross-sections.
One more thing. You will notice quite soon that the mulberry that is a brilliant golden colour now will darken to a light chocolate brown quite soon, and to a glorious dark chocolate brown in a couple of years. (If you used heartwood.)
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Andy Barnhart
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Re: Historical Renaissance recorder boring technique

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Stephen,

By "riving" I meant that I split the billets (the old fashioned way, using a froe and maul).

Yuri,

I am in the Piedmont region of NC. I used mulberry heartwood on the pictured whistle. One blank I just bored the other night (yet to become an instrument) is right on the line and will be a two tone (color tone, that is) that looks quite nice. I have a few cherry blanks like that also.

Some of my local wood is maple, but it is primarily red maple that is common here, which is softer than the preferred hard (silver?) maple. The mulberry was also local. Lots of poplar and you could stack sweetgum to the rafters; people are always giving it away. It has interlocking grain and is hard to split. It also warps and twists (but rarely cracks) while drying and doesn't burn well. It carves pretty well and a lot of high end NAF makers use it, but it doesn't seem to be a very good choice for European woodwinds.

My local wood scrounging is sort of on hold for a while, though I still have several blanks left. A local cabinet maker closed shop early last year and I bought his leg wood and hardwood shorts for pennies on the dollar. The leg wood is square blanks of straight grained clear hardwood, usually at least 6/4" thick (rough lumber is always measured in quarter inches in the US) and over 30" in length. It's intended use was legs for tables and chairs. Some of the chair leg pieces are shorter and smaller, but still big enough for whistles. It's mostly cherry, maple and walnut. I have at least a couple of hundred woodwind blanks, though once I get into multi-piece instruments I suspect I will use much more per instrument. Still, I have a supply that should last years while I am doing this part time as a hobby. So I don't have as much motivation as I used to as far as harvesting wood goes. I even gave away a couple of gallons of Anchorseal to another local turner because I was afraid it would go bad before I used it.
-Andy
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Re: Historical Renaissance recorder boring technique

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Andy,
It was your mulberry instrument (picture gone?) that apeared to have runout at the bell which is why I brought up splitting, why I did not digeste riving I am not sure. As this batch is for prototypes for market ready instruments a few suggestions. Undercutting , not as often found on commercial instruments as high end hand made instruments as well as historic instruments. It is a wonderful way to retain a more uniform hole size and get superior tuning. Rule of thumb, undercutting toward the block sharpens both 8vas, undercutting away from the block raises the upper 8va more. Polish out your tone holes. You may already be undercutting , just doesn't appear so on your blog. Voicing is complex and comes with time, if you have problems Yuri, Dana, or myself may be of assistance. There are ways to increase your range as well as strengthen various registers.
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Re: Historical Renaissance recorder boring technique

Post by Yuri Terenyi »

Just a quick word again. I'd keep away from poplar for these kind of instruments. It is used for Native American ones, but those have the window arrangement made from a separate material, often metal. In the case of recorders poplar is simply so soft and absorbent that when playing, it will swell considerably more than you'd like it to. I mean the labium (the edge of the blade). In the long run it will probably tend to rot after a few years, if played regularly. As far as I'm aware, the only case I know of anything like poplar being used in recorder-type flutes are some Turkish willow (very similar timber) pipes. I don't think they are intended to last. And, of course the willow whistles that used to be made by kids every spring, when you can remove the bark from willow twigs in one piece, then cut a window into it, and off you go. These last about an afternoon.
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Re: Historical Renaissance recorder boring technique

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Stephen,

In theory, riving should give me pieces with little or no runout. In practice when the timber source is whatever people cut down or had blow over, I do sometimes get runout or get pieces with a shape such that a straight cylinder turned out of it has run out. I am doing some undercutting and that does make it obvious that certain wood is not suitable, particularly the sweetgum. It's very stringy. The gum is serving its purpose in some ways as a learning wood as far as working on the process of boring, rounding, drilling and carving to reliably end up with something the right size with the holes close to the right place but it doesn't help with refining the techniques that will make me a better instrument maker. I like what Sam Zygmuntowicz is quoted as saying in The Violin Maker - you start caring more and more about less and less. It is quickly becoming obvious to me that undercutting is one of those things you start caring more about to make good woodwinds.

Yuri,

I have not seen metal on NAFs, but most of my exposure has been to two makers who happen to be near me and will put up with a visitor who wants to see what a one man production shop looks like. The two separate air chambers with the external windway does keep the edge from getting much moisture. NAFs are not overblown into the next register and they are tuned minor pentatonic which seems to be very forgiving (with that haunting airy sound, a note that is off a little isn't jarring).

Anyway, the poplar and gum billets will get repurposed as spoon carving blanks or possibly even burned if we ever have a real winter again.
-Andy
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Re: Historical Renaissance recorder boring technique

Post by Yuri Terenyi »

Andy, dunno if I should be giving you advice on these things or not, but I think it's worth it. So here goes. It's about keeping an eye open for good suitable timbers.
Apart from box, which is very difficult to get, your way the most obvious ones are the fruittrees. Plum has been prized for aeons for woodwinds. Apricot and almond are very similar. They all are very hard, dense timbers. Cherries vary more, and in my experience tend to be softer, but still mostly suitable. Pear is another favourite. I haven't had experience with apple much, but some swear by it. In my opinion walnut is on the soft side, but , well, workable.
Now the non-fruits. Hornbeam is used by some professional makers. I have used holly, and it seems to be very good. Certainly very even-grained, in fact quite similar feel to boxwood, just a bit softer. I wonder if anyone here ever used dogwood? Steven, Dana? By description it seems to be very well suited to the task, but I never came across any mention of it in this application.

Well, all the above definitely grow your way, so should be available occasionally at least. Tree surgeons, botanical gardens, friendly farmers are some of the sources. (in botanical gardens they can have some unexpected exotics, too, for a song, sometimes for free. They need to cut off some large branches once in a while, and sometimes cut down entire trees.)
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Re: Historical Renaissance recorder boring technique

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The ornamental varieties of cherry and pear are the most common here. The pear is usually Bradford and I have had a hard time getting good sized pieces to dry properly. I have a trunk section that was sealed and has been drying long enough that I need to cut into it and see if there are some unchecked lengths suitable for blanks. Cherry, as you mentioned, varies quite a bit. I have a self harvested ornamental cherry blank in a batch of blanks I am working on now that I fear is a little too soft (but it was fun turning it down; nice long curls). Dogwood is hard, but difficult to find large and intact (largest ones, which are still not big trees, often have some infestation that hollows them). I have some dogwood mauls that I use with my froe. I also have a small black locust log, which I got with the intent of making an archery bow. But it has more than enough wood for that; I could get a few blanks from it if it would be good for it. It is certainly very hard and rot resistant to boot. And then there is hickory/pecan. Probably the most common wood for tool handles in this region. You find hickory on the curb a lot; people cut them down when they get big enough to drop a lot of worthless nuts. Never hear of it used in a truly musical context (hickory whistles are common, but similar to willow whistles) but it is a hard wood.
-Andy
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Re: Historical Renaissance recorder boring technique

Post by Yuri Terenyi »

Ornamental stuff of any kind is designed to grow as fast as can, so probably invariably is softer than the real equivalent.
Locust and hickory are both hard, but also porous. Locust in particular. The best woods are the ones with as uniform density as you can get, hence the undisputed rule of boxwood. Even if a timber is not really extra-hard, but very uniform, like pear or apricot, it's preferrable to harder, but more porous woods like oak.
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Re: Historical Renaissance recorder boring technique

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The Bradford pear does fit that description of being very uniform and trunk pieces are pretty tough. It is an odd tree in that it has a short trunk (commonly 4' to 6' tall and about 1' to 1.5' in diameter) and then it branches like an octopus. The branches, even big ones, don't seem to be as dense or uniform as the trunk. You would almost think they were grafter because of the difference in character. I cut a rebec bridge and tailpiece out of Bradford pear and was reasonably happy with it. I have carved pieces also and it holds detail very well. I was thinking of using pieces of the pear to make ocarina carvings. There is an experimental cherry one front center of my avatar picture. It's a little totem with the fipple and finger holes in back. I am disappointed in that particular one but not the idea; I consider the experiment a success that needs refinement through repetition.
-Andy
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Re: Historical Renaissance recorder boring technique

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I have a local west coast dogwood drying, but not tried it yet.Haven't tried linden or service berry, but I believe them potentially viable. Some of the more unusual woods I have had luck with are beech, American sycamore, mountain claro walnut,lilac, manzanita, bay laurel, osage orange, yew, canyon live oak, and my favorite, mountain mahogany(cercocarpus). However I have experimented much and found that with cured wood , sharp tools, and various wood treatments, even a porous wood of low density can work. My biggest challenge was doug fir. Fredrick Morgan tried many nontraditional woods. In my early years I as well worked from fire wood piles. Remember not all woods are created equal, even woods of like kind can vary from tree to tree. Charles Collier came up with a low tech way to put the wood in a vacuum then flood it with oil. It added density as well as stability. I am not sure that a softer wood with uneven grain character will serve you well as a learning tool. Walnut is low density( unless it is high altitude) but carves well. Better results can be achieved, but watch the dust.
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Re: Historical Renaissance recorder boring technique

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Stephen,

By "cured", do you mean properly dried or more than that? I have seen discussions and heard musicians say that air dried is superior and yet other knowledgeable people insist there is little or no difference and that most people would not be able to tell the difference in a blind test. Most of the self harvested air dried wood I have is less than 5 years old. The leg stock I bought from a cabinet maker is KD but lived on a shelf for varying amounts of time, but most of it is more than 10 years old.

The walnut carves almost too well. I am doing the whole process on a wood lathe with a standard tool rest, roughing gouge and skew so it is easy for me to go a little deeper than I meant to while rounding soft wood. That has happened to me with walnut. I did find that internally it is burnished pretty well by the drilling and that scraping the outside with a gooseneck scraper seems to leave a less porous structure.
-Andy
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Re: Historical Renaissance recorder boring technique

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Cured means different things for different woods. Lignum vitae responds best for longevity after being boiled from my experience. I prefer at least 5 years of air drying, but at times employ a year in a flowing water source first. I have as well had success with Rod Carmrons microwave system (bring to 100 deg. fair. And hold it there for a half hour, followed a soaking and a week air drying, repeat the soak/drying process a few times) . Microwaving is a stabilizing process when you cannot tell the amount of previous curing . It works well with stabilizing box. I have cooked whistles in stale ale with great results( what else do you do with the remnants of a keg ). I have cured wood in a vacuum and added oil as done by Charles Collier, I found this the best way to add density to my woods. I am working with a fellow using low temperature pressure cooking. The idea really is to simmer the wood and never cook it to the point of altering its integrity. Same with kiln drying, which does change the wood to a more homogenous appearance without the striking contrasts some woods offer. The rational is that a flute goes under a tropical rainstorm when being played, best condition it ahead of time. Simplistically there are two types of moisture in the wood, absorbed water, which comes and goes, and water locked in the cell structure which is harder to remove but needs to be stabilized in the curing process. I also consider soaking the billet or instrument in heated hard drying oil part of the curing though not all woods require this. Oiling a flute with locked in moisture might create problems later. Hard oil does not create water proof structure, but it helps with moisture reaction and wear and elasticity of the wood.
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