Voicing, windway, fipple, tone holes and undercutting

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Andy Barnhart
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Voicing, windway, fipple, tone holes and undercutting

Post by Andy Barnhart »

Should be a short discussion, right? :o

Stephen Bacon encouraged me to ask for help with this. He may regret that shortly. :lol:

I am determined to get this right. So, I have 20 blanks bored and turned to size or nearly so:

Image

Yes, I am seriously doing it, not asking hypothetical questions. The chunks at one end are waste blocks that keep me from busting tools and knuckles on the chuck. They are bored all the way through. My plan is to work on the head at the other end and cut off the excess to get the bell tone. If length is tight, I can clean up the waste block and use that part of the blank.

They are all bored 14mm cylinders with enough length to be C recorders using the Medieval Recorder instructions from The Woodturner magazine Vol 1 Issue 4. But I intend to make D whistles out of many of them. The C recorder plan calls for OD of about 25mm at the head with a carved curved windway.

Note to moderators - I am going to post a couple of snippets from an article from a now defunct magazine but not full content. please let me know if that isn't allowed and I will remove them.

Anyway, it has a very short section on the windway, fipple and window voicing:

ImageCopyrighted image hidden by staff.

And talks about undercutting in a short bit on tuning:

ImageCopyrighted image hidden by staff.

I have a recorder following directions pretty closely with on major deviation - it is one of those sweetgum blanks and I left it a little thicker. The holes on it got enlarged substantially getting the first octave in tune. It is in tune and sounds okay but a little reedy. The second octave is pretty non-existant. I can make it play the upper octave, but it hisses like a gas leak.

I have a D whistle made of mulberry with the fipple/windway/window pretty faithfully following the instructions and then using flutomat for length and tone holes. It is still a little flat, sounds more like a recorder than a whistle and only has a little of the second octave.

I have a E# maple whistle with an oversized bore, a 5mm x 5mm window and a windway made by boring the entire head larger and then making a fipple with a ramp. It does sound more like a whistle and plays 2 octaves, but the lower octave is mixed in when you play the higher octave.

For other reference, I have a plastic soprano recorder, a wood alto recorder and a cheap metal D whistle.

Other published references I have are Trevor Robinson's Amateur Wind Instrument Maker, Bart Hopkin's Musical Instrument Design and Hopkin's book Making Simple Musical Instruments. The last is just a library book I picked up while there with the kids as I noticed the fipple flute in it is simpler - just a ramp aimed at a crescent cut edge. It also has a couple of simple reed instruments that may be a better introduction than a full fledged clarinet, which I am planning for further out.

I have cutting tools, of course, and I also have an inside digital caliper that can reach from the beak to past the window and give me sub mm accuracy. It claims .1 mm, but I am not sure I hold it level enough for more than .2 accuracy.

I tune with a PC application called mTuner that shows me a history of the tone, graphing it out so I can see it rise and fall showing me the note being played and how many cents sharp or flat.

I am open to suggestions about how to proceed with the tubes. I would like to end up with some decent instruments that I will use to get my feet wet selling at a local craft fair or festival, but I want to learn why certain things are better and not just follow instructions.
-Andy
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Re: Voicing, windway, fipple, tone holes and undercutting

Post by Greg Robinson »

Hi Andy,
I'm sorry, but if you need to preface something with "Note to moderators", that's a good indication that you shouldn't be posting it.
You're always welcome to send one of us a private message first if you're not sure about something, but please, you're just making more work for us by doing this.
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Re: Voicing, windway, fipple, tone holes and undercutting

Post by Andy Barnhart »

Excerpts are generally okay. I had hoped to give Stephen an inkling of what I was using for instruction. I know Yuri has seen the article. Anyway, I thought it unlikely that you would delete it. I was wrong.
-Andy
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Re: Voicing, windway, fipple, tone holes and undercutting

Post by Greg Robinson »

Please don't argue your point here Andy.
You can quote excerpts from published articles in text format, but the forum rules clearly state that you may not post images that you did not create yourself. This is to protect the forum from litigation, so that it is able to continue for us all to use. It think everyone can see the value of that.
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Re: Voicing, windway, fipple, tone holes and undercutting

Post by Andy Barnhart »

This is the tuner application I am using:

Image

As you may be able to see, the graph seems to jump by a little over 2 cents as it climbs and falls, so I think that is maximum accuracy. Please let me know if that is not sufficient for tweaking woodwinds. I tune my daughter's guitar with it and her teacher tells me it is always dead on (he uses a scope because they have so many different instruments and they do studio work there) when she gets there. Technology is such that you can't really get a sound card that isn't pretty accurate these days.

BTW, that's the mulberry D that is still flat. I had it much closer before enlarging sound holes for other notes. The notes before it are not properly fingered; nothing is sharp like that.
-Andy
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Re: Voicing, windway, fipple, tone holes and undercutting

Post by Stephen Bacon »

Great Andy,
For any further reference to articles or graphs best to draw a picture and scan it. It is good practice as a maker to be able to make accurate drawings. As far as articles, I was not aware of that one, who wrote it and when? My wife does university level ILL so I am somewhat spoiled in getting ahold of information. I'm very busy getting ready for a week off so I'll respond a little later, I apologize. I hope Greg's terseness doesn't scare you off, every one is entitled to a learning curve, and not all chat room's work the same, but just know as he said he is helping protect MIMF and it is extra work on his part.
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Re: Voicing, windway, fipple, tone holes and undercutting

Post by Andy Barnhart »

It's written by Gary Cook; the article is "Medieval Recorder" from The Woodturner magazine Vol 1 Issue 4. I don't know the date, but it is not to be confused with The American Woodturner; I think it is was a UK publication in the 80s and early 90s. No worries about being quick to respond; I still have work to do getting them final shape and shiny (Cook's article recommends that, BTW - literally finishing the outside before drilling and cutting). I also have a few other irons in the fire. I am taking my time starting the next step on these until I have some ideas about what to try different. I have made several "fipple flute like objects" and they all made sound but I haven't really been happy with any yet. I am definitely getting closer though.
-Andy
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Re: Voicing, windway, fipple, tone holes and undercutting

Post by Yuri Terenyi »

I know the article in question. It was indeed published in a UK magazine, not an American one.
Andy, the article is very good in my estimation. As far as recorders are concerned, and when it comes to the work part. On the other hand, I do have my very strong reservations about the actual plan presented, and for a very simple reason: with a completely cylindrical bore there simply is no real way to get the second octave in tune unarguably well, let alone using Baroque fingring. However, let me stress that as far as the actual work step-by-step is involved, it's tops.
Now, I need to ruminate a bit on th plethora of questions you raised, but there is one point that I can tell right now. Recorders are not whistles and vice versa. I have tried making whistles myself, and it ended in spectacular failure. I do not play them, and it shows. I mean, I don't play Irish Trad., which is what 99% of whistles are used for in Anglo-Saxon countries. Ergo- no understanding of the requirements of whistles. What I essentially made were recorders with only 6 holes, and it's just not right. (I sent two to a very knowledgeable whistle player for review, and asked him for an honest one, no holds barred, which is what I got.)
More to follow in a day or two...
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Re: Voicing, windway, fipple, tone holes and undercutting

Post by Andy Barnhart »

Yuri,

I know a bit about your experience with this from a prior discussion on a carving site. And your experience on the other site. You fared better than a flute maker in Utah who really got dragged over the coals. That flute maker is making Irish style flutes and he used a cheap imported flute as a pattern, even buying hardware that matched. But he was more careful about tuning. He sells his flutes on eBay for a reasonable price and has an excellent rating there with plenty of satisfied customers; they obviously are quite playable. But due to the similarity to the imports, people at that well known ITM player site assumed he was really importing and reselling. Even after one of them visited and saw he was a turner and had a large stock of wood blanks and no stock of flutes (which he sold as he completed them) some of them still insisted it was a ruse. I expect it will be a long time before I produce something I would want to pass under the noses of that crowd. Don't get me wrong; their feedback is valuable. But it is far from representing the general music playing public.

I am not a very good musician and despite my interest, probably never will be. I read music and know a fair amount of theory. But I have taken the tone test at musicbrain a couple of times and my ability to distinguish tones is well below average; about 8 MHz at 500 MHz. This is not a fixable problem; it will likely get worse as I age. Fortunately I am married to someone who oozes musical talent. My wife sings in the choir and is often called on to solo, either singing or playing the flute. So I have mTuner to tell me I have an instrument producing the right pitch and my wife to give me a more subjective opinion. Being "tonally challenged" has its upside though; I can happily play tunes on a whistle that is 40 cents off. :o

Your comment about the recorder bore does push me toward making the blanks I have bored into whistles or other fipple folk flutes. As you are likely aware of, just about every region of Europe and Asia has some variant of an internal ducted fipple flute. You can buy a one piece 6 or 7 hole D major "whistle" with a cylindrical bore of 1/2" give or take 1/8" that is around 1' long under about a dozen different names. There is more to it than changing the name; they seem to be geared toward different styles and have a slightly different sound from hole sizes, placement and how the windway/fipple/edge is made. And some will be more fun to make as they have carved decorative exteriors.

My real eventual target is to make wooden folk woodwinds and medieval instruments for early music players and period re-enactment. I want them to be good solid playable instruments that I can sell at festivals mostly because I think I will enjoy doing that when I retire rather than expecting to make a lot of money at it.

All that is a long winded way of saying I am not hung up on these whistle being session ready ITM whistles, but that would be nice. I want them to sound good, be fairly easy to play and have as wide a range as is feasible. Once I have experience making decent woodwinds, then I will expect to be able to tweak things to satisfy different expectations.
-Andy
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Re: Voicing, windway, fipple, tone holes and undercutting

Post by Andy Barnhart »

I accidentally posted twice in the wrong thread - copying that text here and adding to it...

------------

I went ahead and sanded 6 tubes down to where I can move forward with them and decided what they will be - "Troubadour Whistle Flutes".

That's kind of side stepping exactly which European fipple flute I am copying, but I can certainly point to volumes of iconography that supports the idea that instruments of the sort existed and were used by troubadours. But they will be modern tuning 6 hole C and D whistles. I hesitate to call them penny whistles as that carries expectations of "that sound" that ITM players want. I will get there...

Anyway, next step is to turn and cut suitable plugs. I will probably go ahead and carve into at least one, trying a 4mm square window and 45 degree blade ramp with no undercut, and cutting a ramp on the fipple to "aim" at it. Yet another learning experience and most likely salvageable if I am advised to alter it (likely to a larger window and/or steeper blade ramp).

_________________
-Andy

Running monologue continues. Only cut into one blank. 4x4mm was too small; I had to get it to 6 (wide - side to side) x 5 to really be able to work with it. I used a blank I had turned skinnier than I intended - walls are 2.5mm (no way can it work with the recorder plan). First fipple I tried had a lot of my same old problems - breathy, went into second octave too easily, some warbling between octaves and even reached a third unwelcome octave. Turned another fipple and cut a ramp that is tiny at the window. First test was to make sure it didn't work as it seemed like it would be practically stopped up. It wasn't. I got a fairly clear tone that I could push into the next octave easily but only on purpose. Little on the quiet side, but no surprise with the window size. I ran TWCalc to get a plan and cut it a little longer than called for; sure enough I get a D flat. So today's experiment says a small window, no windway cut into the tube and a ramp on the fipple that pinches to practically nothing seems to have promise. This one is walnut with a white cedar fipple. TWCalc says I need to cut off about 17mm more to get to a D; you can bet I won't do that all at once...

There is a little bit of an unwelcome overtone when I blow a little hard but less than enough to octave switch. I need to get a better mic or record with a different device than the computer I use (I still believe its tuner; getting frequency right and getting full rich sound captured are two different things).

_________________
-Andy

and now more...

Image

Bell tone is right on D. Everything else is 20 to 60 cents flat (most are less than 40). Octave is very slightly flat.
-Andy
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Re: Voicing, windway, fipple, tone holes and undercutting

Post by Yuri Terenyi »

Andy, without getting too deeply into it, there is a very fundamental thing that I think you need to confront. And that is what exactly are you trying to make? Because it seems that you are undulating between all kinds of fipple flutes, not settling on any one, but borrowing ideas from all, and combining them into an instrument. Thing is, in spite of all being fipple flutes (which is a funny name, since not any two people agree on just what exactly the fipple is), they are all different instruments, with quite different details, and musical requirements. I think before getting down to the details, you should be clear on this point.
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Re: Voicing, windway, fipple, tone holes and undercutting

Post by Andy Barnhart »

I believe this one is a D whistle. It follows the Bart Hopkins plan for a simple fipple flute in fipple airway design but the holes sizes and layout are as suggested for whistles. I would like to learn to make both whistles and recorders. I have one cylindrical recorder plan that you are very aware of and I really don't have a specific plan for a whistle. I have Hopkins' "simple fipple flute" plan. I have the Trevor Robinson book which is information about making historical instruments with detailed drawings of several, but it is a stretch to call it a plan. The problem with learning to make woodwinds out of wood is that there really aren't that many sources of information. I have found plenty of complete plans for making whistles from plastic or metal pipe. So I make wooden tubes and try adapting different plans and techniques trying to figure out which ones make sense.

I want to make good D whistles. I want to make good recorders. At some point I want to start making multi-part instruments. I probably should set about to learn all that in a more organized fashion but I am largely driven by information and opportunity - I got a recorder plan and exactly the bore called for so I went off on that tangent and I have a C recorder that sorta works (poor wood choice on my part is a big part of it coming up a little short).

But now I have this D whistle, so today I am a whistle maker. Do the undercutting instructions for tuning the recorder work with it?

Was using the sloped ramp on the plug and not cutting a windway above the bore the best way to go for whistles?

So much that I don't know and even more that I don't know to ask about...
-Andy
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Re: Voicing, windway, fipple, tone holes and undercutting

Post by Jim McConkey »

If I were you, I would stick to simple side blown flutes until you get the voicing procedure down. Don't complicate the process with fipples, etc. until you know how to get the pitches correct. And don't even worry about minor details like undercutting the fingerholes. Until you get the rest down, undercutting will not make any noticeable improvement.

If all your notes are flat, your finger holes are too small. Fix the lowest hole first (all other fingers down), and work your way up one at a time, reaming each hole gently until the pitch is correct.
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Re: Voicing, windway, fipple, tone holes and undercutting

Post by Andy Barnhart »

I am not sure why I have flat instruments. I would use exactly the same calculators for sideblown flutes. I don't know if there is something out there besides TWCalc and flutomat that might work better for wood or not. If I could get help or take a course locally I would.
-Andy
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Re: Voicing, windway, fipple, tone holes and undercutting

Post by Andy Barnhart »

Jim McConkey wrote:If all your notes are flat, your finger holes are too small. Fix the lowest hole first (all other fingers down), and work your way up one at a time, reaming each hole gently until the pitch is correct.
I used a countersink bit in a handheld chuck and wallowed slightly using the tuner and got it tuned. Spent the last little while playing it in some (and boy do I need the practice :) ). The low volume from the small window makes this one a good practice whistle. But while it is quieter, I am happier with the sound and range than I have been with my others. I think I will try to make a couple of more exactly like it except in cherry and maple.

The experience has left me wondering if new fipple plugs might salvage a couple of instruments (a sweetgum Ren style C recorder and a mulberry D whistle with the windway and labium cut like the recorder) that don't play upper notes well and are breathy. They both do play; just not as happy with them.
-Andy
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Re: Voicing, windway, fipple, tone holes and undercutting

Post by Jim McConkey »

The first thing you need to understand is that NONE of the available calculators are perfect. NONE of them. And none of your materials will be absolutely perfect. When building good wind instruments you cannot go on preset measurements alone. You have to make the instrument a little long with holes a little too small and then adjust to perfection. You don't even need a calculator or spreadsheet at all!

If the whole instrument is flat, it is simply because the tube is too long. Shorten the tube (cut off the open end) until the pitch is correct. Don't go by what a spreadsheet tells you - that is a starting point at best. If individual notes are flat, it is because the holes are too small. Make the holes bigger. The procedure to voice a flute is to get the length adjusted to proper pitch, then tune bottom hole for the first note, then tune the 2nd bottom hole for the second note, etc., until the whole instrument has been set. On the other hand, if the instrument is sharp, you are out of luck short of sticking some extra beeswax or similar on the end to make the tube longer.

Forget the spreadsheets and go back to the basics. Buy a 10' length of 3/4" PVC for a dollar or two and experiment. Take a section like 26", stop one end with a cork, cut the embouchure hole, then adjust the overall length to the native pitch (D is closer to 25", but you always have to start too long). Lay your fingers comfortably on the instrument and mark your finger positions, then drill a 1 mm or 1/16" hole at each position. Hold all fingers down except the bottom one and ream that one (the reamer on a Swiss Army knife works well) until the E note is at pitch. Uncover the bottom two holes and adjust the F# to pitch. You may have to tweak slightly once all the notes are done because the depth of the hole chimneys will have a small effect. This is an overly simplified procedure, but you need to go through it a dozen times to get a good feel for it. No matter what wind instrument you build, you need to know and understand this tuning procedure. The positioning of the fingerholes actually does matter, especially if you want the cross fingerings to work, but you really need to learn how to voice an instrument properly before proceeding with other more complicated steps. If you expect to make world class instruments off a spreadsheet, you are going to be sorely disappointed!
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Re: Voicing, windway, fipple, tone holes and undercutting

Post by Andy Barnhart »

This wasn't the first one I had to tune, but I had first worked with instructions that told me to file the holes larger and I have another set that say undercut. The reaming with the countersink bit went really well. It looks good (especially after oiling), feels good under the fingers and it was easy to do gradually. I don't expect the spreadsheets to be perfect, but did expect it to be a lot closer than it was. Given the exact diameter of the bore and the window size (in TWCalc, since it does width and length, I am sure it was correct) it missed the length by 17mm on a D whistle. I switched to flutomat and worked backwards, adjusting the embouchure size value to get the length that I knew was correct and then using hole positions. They were not far off compared to some past whistles. I think the extra step of fudging the embrouchure size value to get the length to match makes the hole positions more accurate.

I don't have any interest in "plasticworking"... :)
-Andy
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Re: Voicing, windway, fipple, tone holes and undercutting

Post by Yuri Terenyi »

Andy, once again, recorders are not whistles. :shock: Why it's important is this: The whole process of tuning (let alone the voicing) is geared to achieve different results. Whistles have very large fingerholes compared to recorders, I'm sure you noticed. The reason is that whistles are diatonic (essentially), and recorders are (at least supposed to be) chromatic. Now, with very large fingerholes whan you overblow, you get fairly close to the octave. (it's still not perfect, but close). With recorders however, you need all the semitones, in both (and in the third) octaves. That means very much smaller fingerholes, a lot of fiddling around with the tuning and undercutting, and rather convoluted fingerings. If you look up historical fingering charts (I mean charts for historical recorders), you'll find that there simply isn't one as such. There are dozens, some differing very considerably. That's because recorders kept on changing with time. From being rather simple (though I have to say that out of the known 5 truly Medieval recorders only one solitary example has strictly cylindrical bore, the Dordrecht one. Since this one was found first, it was assumed that all Medieval recorders had cylindrical bores. Since then at least 3 have been found with definitely established bores (the Gottingen, the Tartu and the Elblang ones), and NONE of these have cylindrical bores. (all of these seem to have the first fingerhole playing a semitone rather than a tone below the second fingerhole, by the way.) So, to return to what I was on about, from simple instruments they progressed to far more sophisticated ones, with considerable experience obviously being accumulated along the way. Also, the makers seem to have been rather experimenting-minded blokes. Something to remember here is that recorders were the ART instruments of the time, so the expectations were very exacting. Which leads me to the next point: the tuning. I have to ask a question here. Do you know the difference between equal temperament and the plethora of others? Historical recorders were NEVER tuned in equal temperament. This might seem like a hair-splitting exercise, but trust me, the results are enormously different. Before trying to recreate historical recorders any maker should at least learn what the question is all about,even if tey stick to making recorders in equal temperament. (A lot of them are, for erm, practical as opposed to musical reasons.) If you are interested, look up J. Murray Barbour's Tuning and temperament. Available from Dover editors (a reprint) for a very affordable price. It is not exactly bedside reading (unless used as a sleeping aid) but gives a mathematical background to the whole question, and also a huge amount of charts, showing the European tuning systems through the ages. Possibly you have come across multi-temperament tuners, and wondered just what they are about. This book gives an answer to that.
That's for today.
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Re: Voicing, windway, fipple, tone holes and undercutting

Post by Andy Barnhart »

Yuri,

I do know about the early tunings and tapers.

Trevor Robinson is clear that in his book he chose a taper of 1:48 because of availability of machinist pin reamers and because it works well for baroque style, which is mostly what he gives instruction for. He does have one straight bore "recorder" which is an alto. It is very similar to the C "recorder" in the Woodturner article, just in a larger size. I do plan to make and/or purchase reamers in the future, but was attracted to the idea of using the straight bore plans to learn how to make a good windway and work through some of the intricacies of tweaking tone holes. And the most explicit plan I have is the straight bore recorder from the Woodturner article.

I had always planned to do other tunings if requested. Maybe I am oversimplifying (I have a gift/curse for doing that), but I had looked at that as simply using a chart and tuning to the Hz value specified instead of the Hz value for the note in modern tuning.

With the equipment and experience I have now, it probably does make more sense for me to make whistles. I don't play either instrument all that well, but I struggle less with the whistle. The tunes I am learning now to play at fairs/festivals (not as a performer but as a vendor) I am playing on the whistle.

I am still very interested in learning more about the topics for this thread, whether I use the info on whistles, recorders or other instruments.
-Andy
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Re: Voicing, windway, fipple, tone holes and undercutting

Post by Yuri Terenyi »

Well, Dana started the other thread, the one that went totally off-topic by now, by asking about the really puzzling bore profiles in the Vienna catalogue. Thing is, just about none of historical recorders have a tapered bore, either, at least not straight tapered. They tend to have rather complex, composite bores. When it comes to Renaissance recorders, there is a marvellous study published, that explains a lot about just why the convoluted bores. Here: Marvin, Bob (1972). Recorders and English flutes in European collections. The Galpin Society Journal 25: 30-57. (You can read a copy at any reasonable university library, or get it online, though you'll probably need to pay. I haven't checked.) Baroque recorders work on fairly much the same principles, by the way, just more conical (overall) bores.
I think all in all starting on whistles is a good idea, as you really learn the tricks of making the fipple, (whatever that is exactly) and might even find that that is exactly whet you want to do for real.
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