First Build Log - OM 6-String

Re: First Build Log - OM 6-String

Postby Bryan Bear » Mon May 08, 2017 11:26 am

Barry, may correct me here, but I think he means that they are too thick/wide. This is, of course, a matter of taste, but that will be a really bold black line and one on the inside and outside may dominate the overall look. I think he was encouraging you to go much thinner in the stock prep. This will also make bending and installing much easier.
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Re: First Build Log - OM 6-String

Postby Eric Knapp » Mon May 08, 2017 11:33 am

Bryan Bear wrote:Barry, may correct me here, but I think he means that they are too thick/wide. This is, of course, a matter of taste, but that will be a really bold black line and one on the inside and outside may dominate the overall look. I think he was encouraging you to go much thinner in the stock prep. This will also make bending and installing much easier.

Thanks, that was just an experiment, not a design decision. I was trying to see if I could make my own thin strips. My first try was for 1/16" edging. Next I'm going to try to make 1/32" strips. I have some ideas on how to do that and we'll see if they work. I can see that at 1/32" it would be easy to bend to that curve without heat.

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Re: First Build Log - OM 6-String

Postby Barry Daniels » Mon May 08, 2017 8:26 pm

Yes, too thick was my main concern. For some reason, strips this wide look bad too me. Maybe just what I am used to. Also, it was hard to see from your pictures, but the strips looked rough and I assumed that the show edge that fits against the top wood was rough too. Sorry if I was wrong there. But my other concern was you having to bend on a hot pipe. As you found out, bending ebony is a hit or miss proposition. I've made many a rosette and never had to resort to pipe bending. If you can make 1/32" thick strips in a smooth and consistent dimensions, you will be better off, IMHO.
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Re: First Build Log - OM 6-String

Postby Eric Knapp » Tue May 09, 2017 3:39 pm

Barry Daniels wrote:Yes, too thick was my main concern. For some reason, strips this wide look bad too me. Maybe just what I am used to. Also, it was hard to see from your pictures, but the strips looked rough and I assumed that the show edge that fits against the top wood was rough too. Sorry if I was wrong there. But my other concern was you having to bend on a hot pipe. As you found out, bending ebony is a hit or miss proposition. I've made many a rosette and never had to resort to pipe bending. If you can make 1/32" thick strips in a smooth and consistent dimensions, you will be better off, IMHO.

Thank you, Barry. There's no need to apologize, you've been incredibly helpful. I'm trying to learn many things at once and I'm having fun. It's all good! I've been playing with designs while giving final exams. Here's the latest.

Rosette.png
Trying This One


I think I can do that and I got some black dyed maple veneer for the black lines. I have some maple veneer for the light lines.

-Eric
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Re: First Build Log - OM 6-String

Postby Bryan Bear » Tue May 09, 2017 4:34 pm

I like that.
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Re: First Build Log - OM 6-String

Postby Mark Swanson » Tue May 09, 2017 4:56 pm

That is exactly how I do many of my rosettes. So I like it! It makes a difference to me if you make the grain direction in the segements to go across the short dimension, make them all have grain direction that points toward the center of the ring. That looks best to me.
I cut angled sections on my table saw, and glued them together in a circle. Then, laying them out carefully on a router jig I routed the ring out of this glued assembly of sections. Make the channel in the top to fit the ring and glue it in...when that is dry, run the 1/16" bit around each edge and glue in the inner and outer purfling, done.
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Re: First Build Log - OM 6-String

Postby Eric Knapp » Tue May 09, 2017 11:01 pm

Bryan Bear wrote:I like that.

Thanks, I hope I can make something physical that looks like that. Computer generated stuff is easy.

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Re: First Build Log - OM 6-String

Postby Eric Knapp » Tue May 09, 2017 11:05 pm

Mark Swanson wrote:That is exactly how I do many of my rosettes. So I like it! It makes a difference to me if you make the grain direction in the segements to go across the short dimension, make them all have grain direction that points toward the center of the ring. That looks best to me.

I might like it better that way too. However, this wood has such strong figure I think I will try it like this first. I made that image from photos of the wood I have.

Mark Swanson wrote:I cut angled sections on my table saw, and glued them together in a circle. Then, laying them out carefully on a router jig I routed the ring out of this glued assembly of sections. Make the channel in the top to fit the ring and glue it in...when that is dry, run the 1/16" bit around each edge and glue in the inner and outer purfling, done.

Sounds like the voice of experience. I will see what works with my toolset and let you know.

Thanks for the feedback. I am itching to get back out to the shop but this is finals week. The tension in the air is thick.

-Eric
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Re: First Build Log - OM 6-String

Postby Mark Swanson » Thu May 11, 2017 4:14 pm

One more thing Eric...I make my segements about two inches long, and when glued together the blank can be routed on a jig I made that cuts three rings out of it, the innermost being smallest and the outermost being biggest. I use all three sizes on different instruments I make.
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Re: First Build Log - OM 6-String

Postby Eric Knapp » Fri May 12, 2017 11:02 pm

Here's my first attempt at making a rosette. I noticed a beautiful piece of walnut and decided to give that a try. I sliced some on my bandsaw and sectioned it. I think it's nice but I made it and it's my first one. I might be biased. :D

rosette - 1.jpg
First Attempt

The light lines are maple. I like closeups so here are a couple.

rosette - 2.jpg
Closeup 1

That is nice wood and I'd like to know what you think of it for a rosette.

rosette - 3.jpg
Closeup 2

I have a piece of the cedar scrap from the top that I'm finishing with shellac as a trial. I put the rosette on it and then added more trim on the computer to make this mockup.

GuitarWithRosette2.jpg
Mockup

As always, I'm open to feedback, comments, criticism, and rotten tomatoes. Is this a reasonable rosette for this build?

Thanks,

-Eric
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Re: First Build Log - OM 6-String

Postby Barry Daniels » Sat May 13, 2017 8:29 am

It looks real good. Your mock up shows a white/black purfling border on the inside and outside edges, which I highly recommend. Did you sand and finish it just to see what it looks like? I ask, because normally the top edge is left rough and unfinished until it gets installed.

One other thing: normally the rosette is split at the top which allows some flexibility when installing into the dado. The split then gets covered by the end of the fretboard.
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Re: First Build Log - OM 6-String

Postby Eric Knapp » Sat May 13, 2017 8:41 am

Barry Daniels wrote:It looks real good. Your mock up shows a white/black purfling border on the inside and outside edges, which I highly recommend.

Thanks, Barry. I do intend to have those purfling lines on the guitar. I added them on the computer to see what they looked like. I got some dyed-black veneer and I'll use the same maple as I used in between the segments.

Barry Daniels wrote:Did you sand and finish it just to see what it looks like? I ask, because normally the top edge is left rough and unfinished until it gets installed.

I sanded to get an even thickness. The finish is just a quick shellac wash and it was so I could see what it would look like. I'm planning on using Royal-Lac on this guitar and I hope doing that wash won't affect anything. I'm doing things that makes sense to my newbie instincts. I see that commercial rosettes sometimes aren't a full circle as they don't need to be. I didn't know how to do anything but the full circle and some of it will be covered up by the fretboard. The horror! 8-)

Thanks for the feedback. I am having way too much fun with this. I have to remember to go to work for a few more years.

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Re: First Build Log - OM 6-String

Postby Mark Swanson » Sat May 13, 2017 8:47 am

It looks good to me. The way that I make them has me ending up with complete rings too, and so I just cut them at the top afterward. It's kind of hard to bring myself to do that! However some of the designs I build need the full ring.
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Re: First Build Log - OM 6-String

Postby Eric Knapp » Sat May 13, 2017 8:53 am

Mark Swanson wrote:It looks good to me. The way that I make them has me ending up with complete rings too, and so I just cut them at the top afterward. It's kind of hard to bring myself to do that! However some of the designs I build need the full ring.

Thanks, Mark. Why do you need to cut them at the top? Is that when you mount them on the guitar? Is that needed?

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Re: First Build Log - OM 6-String

Postby Bryan Bear » Sat May 13, 2017 9:11 am

I like it. I think it goes better with the cedar than the maple mockup. Definitely use the maple line inside the back!
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Re: First Build Log - OM 6-String

Postby Eric Knapp » Sat May 13, 2017 9:43 am

Bryan Bear wrote:I like it. I think it goes better with the cedar than the maple mockup. Definitely use the maple line inside the back!

Thanks, Bryan. Do you mean that I should use the same maple as purfling on the back?

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Re: First Build Log - OM 6-String

Postby Randy Roberts » Sat May 13, 2017 10:11 am

Eric,
My only criticism would be the difference in the segments in the left side of the rosette.

Just a matter of personal taste, but I find that, when the segments are as identical repeats of each other as possible, the overall effect of the rosette as a whole just seems to feel more balanced to the eye. Kind of a feng shooey <g> thing.

If you have a piece of wood that you can take sequential slices of it to use, a lot of times you can do that. The more quartered the wood the less variance from slice to slice for your repeats.

Just my 2 rubles.
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Re: First Build Log - OM 6-String

Postby Mark Swanson » Sat May 13, 2017 10:42 am

Eric, I cut them at the top when I mount them into the dado, when it won't show. of course on designs where it shows you can't do that. With a ring like this, the whole thing is exposed.
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Re: First Build Log - OM 6-String

Postby Eric Knapp » Sat May 13, 2017 10:47 am

Mark Swanson wrote:Eric, I cut them at the top when I mount them into the dado, when it won't show. of course on designs where it shows you can't do that. With a ring like this, the whole thing is exposed.

That's a beauty, Mark. I am going with the traditional sound hole for this first build. I may experiment some day.

-Eric
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Re: First Build Log - OM 6-String

Postby Eric Knapp » Sat May 13, 2017 11:07 am

Randy Roberts wrote:Eric,
My only criticism would be the difference in the segments in the left side of the rosette.

Just a matter of personal taste, but I find that, when the segments are as identical repeats of each other as possible, the overall effect of the rosette as a whole just seems to feel more balanced to the eye. Kind of a feng shooey <g> thing.

If you have a piece of wood that you can take sequential slices of it to use, a lot of times you can do that. The more quartered the wood the less variance from slice to slice for your repeats.

Just my 2 rubles.

Thanks, Randy. That was a little piece of walnut and I just had to use it. I don't know which way is up with it yet and I hope it looks ok when done.

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