End pin jack being pulled forward

Please put your pickup/wiring discussions in the Electronics section; and put discussions about repair issues, including fixing errors in new instruments, in the Repairs section.

End pin jack being pulled forward

Postby Christ Kacoyannakis » Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:08 am

I made two archtops in 2008. I gave one to a friend, as a gift, and kept the other. I noticed yesterday that the end pin jack is being pulled forward by the stranded steel/plastic covered tailpiece fastener. I used a basswood tail block, but inlaid a 1" by 1" piece of hornbeam down the center of the tail block, in hopes of alleviating this problem. Guess it did not work.

Have other people had similar issues? If so, what do you to alleviate or correct it on the problem guitar? What do you do to avoid this?

Creating this type of tailpiece/fastener system is a lot of work, and I am looking for a better way to do it. Maybe use some kind of metal angle mount. But then, I am not sure how to attach the tailpiece to the mount. I would like to use a wood tailpiece, rather than metal, but I am not wedded to the cable type (cello style) fastener.
Christ Kacoyannakis
 
Posts: 174
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:58 pm

Re: End pin jack being pulled forward

Postby Brian Evans » Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:27 am

Is the wood deforming, or is the jack deforming?
Brian Evans
 
Posts: 708
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:26 am
Location: Tatamagouche, Nova Scotia

Re: End pin jack being pulled forward

Postby Bob Gramann » Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:15 am

Basswood is pretty soft. Is your inlay moving?
User avatar
Bob Gramann
 
Posts: 770
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:08 am
Location: Fredericksburg, VA

Re: End pin jack being pulled forward

Postby Alan Carruth » Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:23 pm

One piece of hard wood at the surface of a soft block won't help much, I think. Basically it just provides a pivot under the torque load of the endpin; the hard wood is not effected much, but the soft wood still compresses. This will be less effective if the hardwood is on the inside surface, since that gives the load more leverage.

Would it be possible to ream the hole out over size, and put in a metal tube insert? That would at least help spread the load a bit. Another possibility would be to make up a suitably 'art deco' inlay of some thickness to adorn the hole, and also spread the load.
Alan Carruth
 
Posts: 826
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:11 pm

Re: End pin jack being pulled forward

Postby John Clifford » Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:52 pm

This is one of the reasons I have abandoned the Benedetto cello style tailpiece fastener. I think D’Aquisto had a better idea, which was to make a 1/2 wood and 1/2 metal hinge. The top piece is wood and the end piece is metal. A steel pin runs through both to make the hinge. I’ll try to add a couple pictures of the one I just made. This uses 1/2 of a brass hinge I got from a marine supply company, but you could make your own out of brass stock.
Attachments
tp2.jpg
tp1.jpg
John Clifford
 
Posts: 101
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:08 pm

Re: End pin jack being pulled forward

Postby Randolph Rhett » Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:50 pm

There used to be a person on this forum who would put a screw vertically through the top and into the tail block. The tail piece had a keyhole of brass(?) epoxied into a recess. They keyhole slipped over the end of the screw and nothing hung over the edge of the guitar. He was Italian and made some of the sexiest looking guitars I've ever seen. Maybe one of the longtimers here remembers his name. The tailpiece without a hinge or strap LOOKED amazing. I don't know if there were problems down the road with that system, and I've never done it. But if it worked, it was one seriously cool take.

The other problem than the hole deforming is the endpin snapping. I posted here about a year ago an end pin jack that just snapped under the pressure of the strings. Luckily my heart didn't stop at the loud explosion when it gave.
IMG_3678 (1).jpg
IMG_3678 (1).jpg (21.07 KiB) Viewed 9303 times

Mystery Chinese pot metal that obviously didn't have the strength for the job. I've since switched to putting the jack on the rim and using a brass endpin from LMI.
User avatar
Randolph Rhett
 
Posts: 326
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:19 pm
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: End pin jack being pulled forward

Postby Christ Kacoyannakis » Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:36 am

If I recall correctly, my hornbeam insert was not just a small insert of wood on the outside. It was one inch wide and one inch deep and it ran from rim to rim in the tailblock. Thought that would be enough, but then again, there are six metal strings tuned to pitch pulling on it. I think that the wood is deforming, and not the end pin jack. The tailpieces on these guitars were one of the hardest things. I ruined 3 or 4 of them, trying to make them myself, so I finally but the premade Benedetto ones from LMI, and then I changed the shape a bit, and arched the top surface to match the radius of my fretboard, and added an inlay.

I really need to come up with something different, because I just didn't like it doing it, and now I see a huge problem with it. I do believe I remember the maker with the screw in the top to hold the tailpiece. I will have to look that up. Ken Parker does a similar design, where he makes up (himself) a mokume gane sandwhich of metal with copper and nickel and forms it into a tailpiece, which he screws into the top of the tailblock. Very cool. The one thing about Ken Parker is that he has spent a huge amount of time trying to figure everything out about the archtop, what works, what doesn't work, what could be better. Very cool stuff. Maybe I'll give him a call.

Thanks guys, and happy holidays!
Christ Kacoyannakis
 
Posts: 174
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:58 pm

Re: End pin jack being pulled forward

Postby Peter Wilcox » Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:49 pm

i made a similar tailpiece for an experimental resophonic guitar a few years ago, held on to the tailblock by my favorite hardware, a drywall screw.

tailpiece1.jpg


tailpiece2.jpg


tailpiece3.jpg
Maybe I can't fix it, but I can fix it so no one can fix it
User avatar
Peter Wilcox
 
Posts: 955
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:31 am
Location: Northeastern California

Re: End pin jack being pulled forward

Postby John Clifford » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:07 pm

Peter, did the drywall screw actually hold up to the string tension?
John Clifford
 
Posts: 101
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:08 pm

Re: End pin jack being pulled forward

Postby Peter Wilcox » Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:55 pm

John, it's been hanging strung up for 7+ years and very seldom played, but so far so good. If I were to make a gigging guitar with the same tailpiece design, I'd use a thicker screw of better steel.
Maybe I can't fix it, but I can fix it so no one can fix it
User avatar
Peter Wilcox
 
Posts: 955
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:31 am
Location: Northeastern California

Re: End pin jack being pulled forward

Postby Christ Kacoyannakis » Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:02 am

Thanks, Peter. What was your tailblock wood? That seems to be my biggest problem.
Christ Kacoyannakis
 
Posts: 174
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:58 pm

Re: End pin jack being pulled forward

Postby Peter Wilcox » Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:00 pm

Christ, the wood is alder (because I literally have tons of it). The blocks aren't going to move or deform, as they are large and well buttressed by the metal pan and internal braces. Alder seems to be adequate for holding the screw straight, plus the metal pan probably helps.
Attachments
tailblock1.jpg
tailblock2.jpg
Maybe I can't fix it, but I can fix it so no one can fix it
User avatar
Peter Wilcox
 
Posts: 955
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:31 am
Location: Northeastern California

Re: End pin jack being pulled forward

Postby Christ Kacoyannakis » Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:33 pm

I don't think my basswood with the hornbeam insert tailblock deformed. I think the wood compressed from the strings pulling the end pin jack forward.
Christ Kacoyannakis
 
Posts: 174
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:58 pm

Re: End pin jack being pulled forward

Postby Jim Hepler » Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:12 am

I don't want to hijack this thread, but I am quite fascinated by Peter's roasting pan resonator. I'd love to see any other info about that. I guess I'm asking for a new thread on that one Peter. I'm also curious to see what the problem turns out to be with the travelling jack and what solution you come up with, so I will be following this one eagerly as well.
Jim Hepler
 
Posts: 79
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:15 pm

Re: End pin jack being pulled forward

Postby Peter Wilcox » Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:24 pm

Jim, that build was part of a challenge here in 2010 when I built 4 resophonic guitars from scrounged/unusual parts like 5 gallon buckets, toilet seat, roasting pan, fiberglass and plastic dishes Since none of them had proper cones and bridges, their sound left something to be desired. Unfortunately, at that time, threads scrolled down off the site and were apparently lost forever, so it's no longer available. However, I can post a summary of its construction in the near future, probably in the builds/tutorials section of MIMF. Anyway, here's a pic of the completed guitars.
Attachments
4-resos.jpg
Maybe I can't fix it, but I can fix it so no one can fix it
User avatar
Peter Wilcox
 
Posts: 955
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:31 am
Location: Northeastern California

Re: End pin jack being pulled forward

Postby Jim Hepler » Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:19 pm

That would be great Peter. Thanks a lot. I'll keep an eye out for it.
Jim
Jim Hepler
 
Posts: 79
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:15 pm

Re: End pin jack being pulled forward

Postby Randolph Rhett » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:32 pm

John Clifford wrote:This is one of the reasons I have abandoned the Benedetto cello style tailpiece fastener. I think D’Aquisto had a better idea, which was to make a 1/2 wood and 1/2 metal hinge. The top piece is wood and the end piece is metal. A steel pin runs through both to make the hinge. I’ll try to add a couple pictures of the one I just made. This uses 1/2 of a brass hinge I got from a marine supply company, but you could make your own out of brass stock.


BTW Jim, that is one seriously beefy brass hinge. Can you share where that came from?
User avatar
Randolph Rhett
 
Posts: 326
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:19 pm
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: End pin jack being pulled forward

Postby John Clifford » Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:23 pm

Randolph Rhett wrote:
John Clifford wrote:This is one of the reasons I have abandoned the Benedetto cello style tailpiece fastener. I think D’Aquisto had a better idea, which was to make a 1/2 wood and 1/2 metal hinge. The top piece is wood and the end piece is metal. A steel pin runs through both to make the hinge. I’ll try to add a couple pictures of the one I just made. This uses 1/2 of a brass hinge I got from a marine supply company, but you could make your own out of brass stock.


BTW Jim, that is one seriously beefy brass hinge. Can you share where that came from?


Randolph, I'm not sure if you were addressing me or Jim, but the brass hinge part shown in my photos above came from a Whitecap brass strap hinge, part #S-604BC. You can find these on numerous marine supply websites, or amazon. It's heavier than it needs to be, but I like solid hardware and I don't think it hurts to add some mass at the tail end.
John Clifford
 
Posts: 101
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:08 pm

Re: End pin jack being pulled forward

Postby Alan Carruth » Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:43 pm

I recently delivered an archtop with a 'different' tailpiece , and was dismayed when this thread came up to find that I hadn't gotten a picture of it. Fortunately, the customer is also a student of mine, and he brought it in Saturday, so I was able to get a couple of shots.

The guitar was intended as, in some sense, homage to a Loar L-5. The intent was to come up with an instrument that would work well for acoustic jazz in the 20's-30's style. Normally I would use a wood tailpiece, but the customer thought that since the original was metal, we should go that way. I didn't like the look of the Gibson style tailpieces, so I fell back on a technique I'd used a couple of years ago to make a latch for a folding harp guitar. The issue was that the brass I can get that is thick enough to take the load is too thick for me to bend, so I had to come up with a way to piece it together. I based it on the old transitional 'infill plane' design, whereby a wood plane could be plated with metal. The metal, brass or steel, plates were cut to fit around a wood core, and screwed on. the plates were dovetailed together at the edges, and once mounted the joints were peened to tighten them up. The metal was then filed off level and polished. Here's the fixed part of the hinge, in walnut and brass with a stainless rod for the pivot. You can easily see the dovetail joints. The flat head brass screws that hold the wood and metal together are filed off flush. The fillister head screws are the ones that hold the tailpiece onto the guitar.

tailpiece1.jpg


And here is a shot of the whole thing.
tailpiece2.jpg


The wood part of the trapeze is hornbeam, that has been stained to look like walnut. The strings are retained as per my reading of the Elliot pinless design.

The next time the customer comes up we'll put in an endpin. He doesn't normally play standing, but wants one if he needs it.
Alan Carruth
 
Posts: 826
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:11 pm

Re: End pin jack being pulled forward

Postby John Clifford » Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:50 pm

Very cool looking tailpiece, Alan. So are there pins going through the ball ends of the strings to hold them in place?

I'm guessing this ended up being pretty heavy. How do you think that affected the sound, if at all?
John Clifford
 
Posts: 101
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:08 pm

Next

Return to Archtop Guitars and Bass Guitars

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

Your purchase from these sites helps support the MIMForum, but only if you start at the links below!!!
Amazon music     Amazon books     Amazon tools     Rockler tools     Office Depot    

The MIMF is a member-supported forum, please consider supporting us with a donation, thanks!
 • Book store • Tool store • Links •