archtop tailpiece adjustable string angle

Please put your pickup/wiring discussions in the Electronics section; and put discussions about repair issues, including fixing errors in new instruments, in the Repairs section.
Post Reply
Brian Evans
Posts: 922
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:26 am
Location: Tatamagouche, Nova Scotia

archtop tailpiece adjustable string angle

Post by Brian Evans »

I am designing a new type of tailpiece for my next build, using an aerospace spherical bearing attachment to the top of the heel-block. It turns out that I can very easily add an adjustment to increase or decrease string break angle over the bridge. I plan to use this to experiment with getting a nylon string fan brace archtop to work, but I wondered if anyone had ever done this before, with any effect? I've seen tailpieces where the hinge point was adjustable up and down, I plan to be able to raise and lower the height of the string tie/ball termination with respect to the top.

Brian
Eldon Howe
Posts: 67
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:23 am

Re: archtop tailpiece adjustable string angle

Post by Eldon Howe »

Brian, that is what I am doing as well. My first attempt has failed. The basswood block is too soft and the threaded insert I used is maybe not long enough and the adjustable post is leaning forward.
I plan to insert a maple plug and try again.
I would love to see your setup.
David King
Posts: 2690
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:01 pm
Location: Portland, OR
Contact:

Re: archtop tailpiece adjustable string angle

Post by David King »

Judging from the past 400 years of instrument evolution I would focus on being able to vary the length of string behind the bridge and it's harmonic content vs worrying about the strings' break angle over the bridge.
Brian Evans
Posts: 922
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:26 am
Location: Tatamagouche, Nova Scotia

Re: archtop tailpiece adjustable string angle

Post by Brian Evans »

David, why in the world would you bother to comment on a post where someone is trying to do and learn something new, with a comment like that? That is, in my opinion, just plain unnecessary. If you don't know anything about the question, just don't reply.
David King
Posts: 2690
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:01 pm
Location: Portland, OR
Contact:

Re: archtop tailpiece adjustable string angle

Post by David King »

Brian, Sorry if my reply was brusk. My experience was working long and hard on a hinged tailpiece for someone else that had a height adjustment allowing one to push the ball ends of the strings down towards the body. The results were no perceptible change in sound but only after a lot of time was wasted with broken mechanisms.
I didn't mean to squash an interesting experiment, you may well be onto something. It would be great to see a photo or diagram of the aerospace spherical bearing attachment so that we get a better idea of what that might be.
Brian Evans
Posts: 922
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:26 am
Location: Tatamagouche, Nova Scotia

Re: archtop tailpiece adjustable string angle

Post by Brian Evans »

David, that is exactly what I am talking about! Thank you, since that is exactly the design of tailpiece I was contemplating (ball ends pushed down towards the top). Nice to know that in your case there was no perceptible change in sound. A spherical bearing is just a ball joint, the one I am using is "areospace" because it is quite thin for it's diameter, stainless steel, teflon lined, etc. It will be set into tailpiece to act as the hinge, and bolted into the top of the tail block, which is hard maple, with a threaded insert of one sort or another, using a 1/4" bolt, probably a bright plated Allen head screw that will be visible from the top of the tail piece. I haven't decided if the tail piece will be wood or metal, I am contemplating bright polished billet aluminium. The design spec for this guitar is evolving, it was going to be a fan braced nylon string archtop but now I am leaning towards a classical scale length steel string cross-over guitar with a 1 7/8" nut, and fairly low tension strings.
Alan Carruth
Posts: 1265
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:11 pm

Re: archtop tailpiece adjustable string angle

Post by Alan Carruth »

I've done a few experiments along those lines. Back when I started making archtops I thought that more break angle equated with more tone, so I tried to maximize it. I made several guitars with wooden 'hook' tailpieces: from the side thay looked like a letter 'L', with the short arm pivoting on the side. The line of the strings from the bridge top takes an angle that goes to the pivot point of the tailpiece; with that low on the side you can actually get the strings top effectively go 'through' the top.

On one of them I tried adjusting the pivot point, to see what would happen to the sound. It was interesting. The sound was fine with the pivot all the way up near the edge of the box, and stayed good for a while as I moved it down in small steps. At one point, though, as I got it pretty far down on the side (no, I don't remember HOW far) the tone just died. Raising the pivot point brought it back. so there does seem to be such a thing as 'too much' down bearing. Since then I've learned a couple of things that help make sense of that.

One was brought to my attention by a fellow named Joshua Gordis, who taught at the Naval Post-Graduate Institute. He got in touch to ask if putting string tension on a flat top guitar altered the resonant modes of the top. WE made a few measurements and found that, within the limits of our technique, it didn't. He's been using the frequency change in columns under load as a non-destructive test of truss structures in things like aircraft. A column that s fixed at both ends will have a fundamental bending resonant mode at a certain pitch. If you load the column eventually it will buckle, and at that load the bending mode frequency goes to zero. The neat thing is that the relationship between the mode frequency and the load is linear: at half the buckling load the frequency will be half what it was with no load. This means you can do a simple test with a fairly light load and predict the failure load without risking damage to the structure. On something like an airplane you can find out which parts are likely to fail first, and which ones are over built, so it gives you a way to optimize the structure.

When he told us about this, I checked out the modes of an archtop, and, sure enough, the 'main top' resonant mode DOES drop in pitch as you tighten the strings. It doesn't usually drop much, but it does change noticeably. I did not try increasing the break angle over the bridge (lowering the pivot on the side) to see just when the sound went to pot, but, in a sense, I didn't feel I needed to. The point is that it DOES drop the pitch, which should affect the tone.

The second thing I learned was that you don't need a lot of break angle to get the string to drive the top. Basically, the transverse force of the string that pushes the top in and out to produce sound is well defined if you know the string tension and the angle it makes at the bridge before you release it after pushing it down to pluck it. It's quite small, since the angle is limited: after all, once you've pushed the string down to where it touches the frets you can't go any further. As the string vibrates the angle it makes at the bridge goes up and down, but the 'up' angle will never be greater than the initial 'down' angle. Thus, as long as the string makes a break angle at the bridge that is greater than that down angle, it will stay in contact with the top of the bridge throughout it's vibration cycle, and all of the force produced will be transmitted to the top. Even playing very hard very close the bridge you're unlikely to push the string down at more than about a five degree angle, so in theory that's all the break angle you should need.

In practice there can be a difference between theory and practice, however. You never push the string straight down; there's always some sideways force. This can cause the string to roll on the top of the bridge, and that little sideways motion can play hob with the way it vibrates. Basically, it can introduce other frequencies into the sound, causing buzzes or whatever. Still, you don't need a whole lot of break angle to get all the tone from the string that it's capable of delivering.

So; you don't need a lot of break angle to get sound, and too much can hurt. I can't speak to the limits on either side with any certainty: they probably vary a lot depending on things like how thick and highly arched the top is, and so on. My own inclination these days is to stick to pretty minimal break angles, since, aside from the tone effects, download on the top has no good structural outcomes.

I used a ball and socket joint on the tailpiece of my 'Winter' archtop. I made an ebony post with a ball on the top that fits into a hole in the tailblock. The post has a brass tubing sleeve on it, and this telescopes into a thicker walled stainless tube in the block so I know there's a good fit that won't go out of round. I inset a threaded rod into the end of the post, and threaded insert in the block. so it's easy to adjust the tailpiece height. The ball end fits in a cup on the tailpiece; once the post is screwed in you can't knock the tailpiece off by accident. The whole thing was derived from the tailpiece attachment they use on viols da gamba: a notched stick dovetailed into the tailblock that fits through a square hole in the tailpiece. You can easily find the notch for the tailpiece that gives the best sound for the strings and setup you're using. There really is nothing new under the sun..
Post Reply

Return to “Archtop Guitars and Bass Guitars”