Weakness on the high E, 12th-15th fret?

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Al Dodson
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Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 9:51 am

Re: Weakness on the high E, 12th-15th fret?

Post by Al Dodson »

So Craig, were you able to make any improvement? I got to playing around with another Mac that I don't play much and am trying to chase out a few bugs in it. I agree with Michael; there is nothing like playing a newer instrument to improve it. That being said, I think most of the weakness is from the bridge in one way or another. I think the next thing I do will be to try and improve the fit to the top.
Craig Bumgarner
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Location: Drayden, Maryland

Re: Weakness on the high E, 12th-15th fret?

Post by Craig Bumgarner »

Al Dodson wrote:So Craig, were you able to make any improvement?
I'm afraid not. I did everything I could think of and it is still there. I put off active research for a while and just let it percolate in the background. The problem is not a show stopper really, just that the other notes either side of these are plenty strong by comparison and it just doesn't sound right when playing.

The funny thing is this is across a number of guitars, each similar, but still different in a variety of ways. As to your suggestion, the bridges are well fit to the top. I've tried the suggested reduction of bridge material around the string. I haven't tried the suggested capo on the 7th fret while playing the 12th-15th as I don't have a capo, but I had someone hold the strings down like a capo, no joy. It is only the 12th-15th, high E notes. The neck and frets really look okay to me, but if not, then I don't know what to be looking for. It really does sound like the string is fretting out and as Trevor suggested, well, maybe it is. I tried his LED light trick and got it to flicker a little but not a strong confirmation.

IF the string was fretting out, I guess I don't even know what to do about it. The frets are dead level in this area, both by straight edge measurement and by using a short ground straight edge over 3-4 frets looking for a "rocker". Nuttin'.

I wonder if I posted a recording if this would help someone identify the problem. Or, I guess I could take it to someone who is better at this than I :oops:

CB
Alan Carruth
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Re: Weakness on the high E, 12th-15th fret?

Post by Alan Carruth »

I'm assuming you're basing this on what they sound like when you play them? Are they any better out in front, when you listen to somebody else play? You may be falling prey to the increase in directionality as you go up in pitch.

It's also possible that this is some form or 'wolf' note, related to a resonant mode of the top or air. These can be tricky to find, since there are lots of ways they can happen, but it's usually possible to smoke them out.

Alan Carruth / Luthier
Craig Bumgarner
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Location: Drayden, Maryland

Re: Weakness on the high E, 12th-15th fret?

Post by Craig Bumgarner »

Alan Carruth wrote:I'm assuming you're basing this on what they sound like when you play them?
Yes.
Are they any better out in front, when you listen to somebody else play? You may be falling prey to the increase in directionality as you go up in pitch.
I haven't tried that, but I'll certainly do so as soon as I can. If it sounds okay to the audience, that's all that really matters. It does not, however, sound like a resonance problem more of an interference problem. My perception is something is choking the string vibration.
It's also possible that this is some form or 'wolf' note, related to a resonant mode of the top or air. These can be tricky to find, since there are lots of ways they can happen, but it's usually possible to smoke them out.


My only experience with wolf notes has been on the lower end. Do they occur like this over 3-4 notes E5 - G5? I suppose they do but I have no experience with them there, so don't know what they might sound like. My only thought there is that it seems to be this way across a number of guitars. I've notice it in the ones I build, but I have also noticed it others, including a 60 year old Jacques Castelluccia I did some repair work on last year. Of the ones I have built, I have used a fairly wide variety of bracing patterns, thickness of tops, backs and sides, some laminated, some solid, tops in WRC, Sitka and Englemann, different shapes and sizes of sound holes, different fret sizes, different forms of neck attachment, yet the same problem across a number of guitars, or so it seems. If a wolf note is a resonant reinforcement or diminishing of a particular note due to a structural anomaly, I would guess that it would not be so wide spread in such a similar way.

I have been assuming it has something to do with my neck/ fingerboard/ fret/ string action set up mostly because of the way it sounds, but I'll be damned if I know what it is. I'm beginning to wonder if it is common on ALL guitars of this type (14 fret to the body Selmer style). I'm going to a festival in a couple weeks where there will be hundreds, including some of the best in the world and this is something I'll be checking out.

As I write this, it occurs to me that it might be related to the way I play, humm. I'll get someone else to play it as part of your first suggestion.

Thanks for the ideas, I'm sure we'll "smoke it out" eventually as you say.

CB
Randy Roberts
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Re: Weakness on the high E, 12th-15th fret?

Post by Randy Roberts »

This may be a complete red herring but have you been playing any other types of guitars to know if you are sensing a drop off at this frequency range only with the guitars you're focused on, or with all instruments. The possibility of a loss of sensitivity in this frequency in your own hearing might need to be considered? You might want to double check that by playing on some other instruments.
Just a thought.
Craig Bumgarner
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Re: Weakness on the high E, 12th-15th fret?

Post by Craig Bumgarner »

Hunh? What's that you say? Well, yeah, I do have some old age type hearing problems, but still have one good ear. When I say weakness, it is not so much volume, it is more a lack of power and projection. I'm pretty sure I hear some sort of choking of the string vibration, like a little bit of fretting out. When struck, the note is loud as the others in the neighborhood, but it does not ring well or long. I wish I could describe it better and probably could IF I know what was going on. Talking about this kind of thing reminds of the quip: "talking about music is like dancing about architecture."

So let's assume the string IS fretting out. What could I do about it? The frets are already dead level in this area. The fingerboard has a little relief between the nut and the seventh fret or so, then dead level from there up. Do I take them below level somehow? That doesn't seem right. I'm stuck.

CB
Al Dodson
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Re: Weakness on the high E, 12th-15th fret?

Post by Al Dodson »

Craig, I know exactly what you are talking about which makes me think it is inherent in this type of guitar. To me, it sounds like someone has slipped cardboard under the bridge maybe. It can occur in different places and usually will be over 2-4 frets and up the neck a bit. Like you, I sense that the string may be fretting out but can't seam to find it. One thing I find that helps is to make sure to keep your hand and arm off of the top when playing. This will definitely damp down the entire instrument and may compound the problem in the weak spot. I can't say for sure but it also seams to depend on the humidification level of the guitar or maybe it's just the alignment of the stars. :ugeek:
Craig Bumgarner
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Location: Drayden, Maryland

Re: Weakness on the high E, 12th-15th fret?

Post by Craig Bumgarner »

To close the loop on this.... I spent a week at the Django in June festival in Northampton, MA last week. I played at least 40 different guitars by at least a dozen builders, some are the best in the business world wide, old (1932, 1948, 1951, 50s & 60s) and new. First thing I did was nail the 12th -15th frets. ALL of them sound this way on the 12th -15th fret, every single one. And when asked, people could hear it, so it is not just me, but nobody really seemed to care, so I'm not going to worry about it either. Thanks for all your ideas though, they were very helpful in fine tuning my thinking about this.

Craig
Al Dodson
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Re: Weakness on the high E, 12th-15th fret?

Post by Al Dodson »

Weakness on the12th - 15th fret; or over the heel and headblock. Makes you think...
Craig Bumgarner
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Location: Drayden, Maryland

Re: Weakness on the high E, 12th-15th fret?

Post by Craig Bumgarner »

Al Dodson wrote:Weakness on the12th - 15th fret; or over the heel and headblock. Makes you think...
Oh yeah, there is something going on with the solid nature of what is under those frets. You can feel it when you play. But what?
Al Dodson
Posts: 67
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 9:51 am

Re: Weakness on the high E, 12th-15th fret?

Post by Al Dodson »

A couple of thoughts come to mind. You could build with an elevated fretboard extension or cut the top out around the head block something like Taylor guitars are built. I like the archtop approach but never got around to building one that way.
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