Re-finish technique/suggestions needed

[Rob Kolby]

Hello. I have an old Taylor acoustic that I wanted to refinish.(just the top)
I was going to paint it gloss black. I assumed the the area around the sound hole was a waterslide decal,
but someone said it was an inlay, and to repaint it with clear to get it all the same level would add a lot of paint
and alter the tone...and also be expensive. Not sure that is a great option? Thoughts?

My 2nd idea was this. The top is not perfect. there are some scratches on it. I like the look of satin finishes.
Is it as easy as taking a fine sandpaper to the top to knock the gloss down to achieve that look (which would also
clean up some of the scratches) OR is it better to actually spray a satin clear on the top?

Thanks !!

[Rodger Knox]

From the questions you're asking, it's probably best to leave it alone, finishing is one of the most difficult operations to master, and you're more likely to make it worse than better.
Now that you've been warned, here's how I would do it, with no special tools or spray equipment.
Sand or scrape the top back to bare wood, being careful to sand off ALL the finish, but NONE of the wood. Take particular care around the rosette and binding. This is not quick or easy. If the rosette is a decal, I'd just sand it off and inlay a real one. The top needs to be sanded to 600 grit, which is almost polished.
Apply a black alcohol soluble stain directly to the bare wood using artist brushes, taking care not to get stain on the rosette or binding.
Repeat as necessary until the desired degree of "black" is achieved.
Apply about 20 coats of TruOil, rubbing on very thin coats. Don't flood and wipe off excess, rub on very thin coats, sanding back with 600 grit every 3 or 4 coats. You can add a little black to the oil if you need to. Repeat until desired gloss is achieved.
Finishing is a process, and the oil varnish process above is not compatible with using nitro-lacquer in a rattle can.

[David King]

No harm in trying to de-gloss the top using a very fine (400+) grit foam sanding pad and lightly sanding exactly along the grain. It's very hard to imagine what the extent of the scratches are without seeing a photo of the top. Most modern Taylors are finished with polyester which is an extremely hard and difficult to remove finish. It's much harder than the wood underneath which makes scraping it off dangerous to say the least.
Black gloss is probably the most difficult finish to achieve and have it look good.

[Rob Kolby]

Thanks Rodger and David, the black as explained above sounds like something I may not want to tackle. I wasn't thinking of staining it black,
wanted a gloss black. Can't tell if the rosette is a decal or inlay, Taylor says it is an inlay. If so painting it black I would have to way to preserve that as far as I know and my only option would be a decal on top I guess?

The guitar is from 1992.
There are some issues where the pickguard came off and took some of the wood with it.
I can easily hide those areas with a new pickguard of course.
When I just ordered a new pickguard someone at Taylor said to fill in the bare fibers and gaps with jet glue? and sand smooth.
He also mentioned sanding the gloss would not achieve a satin finish? Now just because he works at Taylor does not mean he is an expert in these areas so I still take it with a grain of salt.
If I were to spray a satin clear over it, could I simply scuff up the gloss, or do I need to also remove it completely, down to the wood, before re applying.

Sorry for all the questions, I want to make sure whatever I do is the right thing.

[David King]

No scuffed satin finish stays satin, it will wear back to a glossier state as you handle it around the edges etc.
Adding any more finish will inevitable change the tone of the guitar and probably not for the better. You'll want to remove some before you apply more.

[Bob Gramann]

My motto for cosmetic repairs: "You can always make it worse."

[Rob Kolby]

yea the consensus is probably to leave it. since it has wear on it, i wasnt to afraid to sand it to get a satin finish (if that would work), or to spray a thin coat of satin over it. if i was looking for perfection i would certainly take it to a luthier. i'm not a huge fan of gloss natural acoustic tops. what is with this glue? i do want to fill those holes. It will be under the pick guard so it prob isn't even something i need to do I guess.

[David King]

They are suggesting a medium viscosity cyanoacrylate glue, pretty much what you get out a little .3gram tube of "Super glue" you can buy for $.33 at your local dollar store. It will fill in the tear-out and bond any loose splinters together without discoloring the wood too much. As with most glues you would lay in a layer into the damaged areas (a "drop-fill") let that sit overnight and scrape off any glue that sticks up proud of the surrounding surface and repeat until it's flat and level. These glues will shrink for a few days after application so be patient.

[Randy Roberts]

Rob,
reading, and then re-reading your posts leads me to feel the best advice I can give is to say read Bob Gramann's reply.
Over and over and over.

[Rob Kolby]

after reading it once I got the gist of it, he makes perfect sense. I get the satin doesn't stay satin thing too. Had a PRS with a satin finish on it, and they told me that same thing. They said if it gets glossy to knock it back down. Forgot what they told me to use for that at the time, whether it sandpaper, 0000 steel wool, scotch pad....that i don't remember. Anyway, All the info helped so I thank everyone !!

[Gordon Bellerose]

Rob, you have to remember that you are talking to a group of people who know what they are talking about.
Most if not all, of the above group build instruments from scratch, and or make a living as a luthier.

Having said that, my comment on your proposed repair is much like Bob's. Finish repairs are one of the more difficult things we do as luthiers.
While I am not a full time luthier, I have been running a small repair business for about 7 years.
The least you can get away with, and still have a playable guitar is the way to go.
Have a look on YouTube for scratch repair, and drop finish repairs.
Depending on how deep these scratches are, it may not be all that difficult to repair them.
I have repaired small scratches with thin superglue.

Education beforehand is of primary importance. I think you know that; thus the post in this forum.

[Todd Stock]

Figure on pulling the bridge and neck, which means you'll have to get them back on as well, so take some measurements if not dealing with the NT neck, etc. If not sure what the differences are in Taylor neck construction, see my last paragraph below. Mechanically stripping the existing finish is going to thin the top unevenly (this is a BAD THING), and chemical stripping will take the harshest, strongest strippers you can buy without wearing a space suit to use them...these strippers are just as effective at dissolving plastic binding and purfling and the glues used for structural work and binding as they are finish, so even after getting the polyester or polyurethane off the wood, there is the issue of making sure the rosette and bindings do not lift or melt.

Once the top finish is off, you'll still need to do any repair on the top, shoot a seal coat, mask off the rosette, shoot color coats, and clean up the rosette and binding...both are inlaid - usual practice is to mask, spray, and carefully scrap off any stuff that ended up where it does not belong. It's work that is challenging in lacquer, and much tougher in polyester or polyurethane. After than, sand to 1200 grit (be sure to blend the old finish into new on the sides without ridges), buff, reset the neck and reglue the bridge.

All this is work that is routinely accomplished by guitar refinishers, but those guys and gals invest a lot of time and dollars into building skills and buying good equipment. If you'd like to take a stab at it and not end up with something that looks like a dog's breakfast, buy a couple $60 pawn shop Chinese guitars and see if you can get the job done. Try playing the guitars out a bit, and you will likely realize that gloss black topped guitars under stage lights will always look like they were handled extensively by 30 or so curious preschoolers just after they finished snack time.

If any of the above gives you pause, see my last paragraph below.

Alternatively, call up a couple refinishers and see if anyone will take on the job. I would likely charge about $400 for a top refinish that will need a bridge pull on a fully bolt-on neck guitar, plus time and materials for the strip (figure 3-4 hours at $100 for stripping polyester...tough stuff). If you find someone that will do it for less, and cannot show you an extensive portfolio of guitar finishing/refinishing work which includes acoustic refinishing, keep looking. A touchup of the existing finish is pretty common work, and any competent luthier can handle a poly touchup (drop fills and spot refinish) far less expensively that a refinish.

Or...sell the Taylor 'as-is' and buy what you really want. There's likely someone out there that will love the Taylor just the way it is, and you will get a guitar that is everything you want without investing the thousands of hours and dollars necessary to build the skills and buy the equipment to make that refinish happen.

[Clay Schaeffer]

If you are not looking for perfection you could;
Sand the existing finish to reduce its thickness and clean off impurities (but don't sand through).
wipe the remaining finish down with naphtha.
Mask off the rosette, bridge,fingerboard extension, and sides.
Spray a couple of coats of rattle can Mohawk flat black.
Remove the masking on the rosette and spray 4 coats of rattle can Mohawk clear gloss.
Wait a couple of months, then lightly buff.