Hernandez Santos lower harmonic bar position?

Please put your pickup/wiring discussions in the Electronics section; and put discussions about repair issues, including fixing errors in new instruments, in the Repairs section.
Post Reply
Simon Magennis
Posts: 471
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:51 am
Location: Menorca. Spain.

Hernandez Santos lower harmonic bar position?

Post by Simon Magennis »

A question for the H.S. experts/fans here. In the Courtnall book the H.S. plan shows a straight across harmonic bar and the braces are 7mm wide and 3.5mm high. In the text he says that H.S. slanted the harmonic bar on some instruments. So far I have used the straight across variant.

The bracing in the book is apparently for a flamenco. I am am curious about the slanted version - the text could be interpreted as meaning that was for classicals as opposed to flamencos. Can anyone here say what he did most commonly? Given that he was of one the greats of his generation, I expect there was a bit of variation in every instrument to account for the variation in his materials but I am sure there must some sort of trend in them.

Is there any other source of H.S. plans or info? My total knowledge of his works comes from the Courtnall book, posts here from the "H.S. team" and listening to the samples on Zaveletas's website and youtube.

Thanks

Simon
Alain Bieber
Posts: 108
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:28 pm

Re: Hernandez Santos lower harmonic bar position?

Post by Alain Bieber »

Hi Simon,
Far from being a Santos "expert" I had the opportunity to have a look at several plans of guitars made by this very good builder of the Madrid school. As one can expect from his very long activity he often changed some features around the basic model of this school, but I do not think the question of the slanted (or not) harmonic bar is of paramount importance. WHat I would say is that a rather limited slant was sometimes in use by such builders. My feeling is, considering the limited angle of this slant when present, that it could only be a second decimal thing in the acoustical performance of such objects.
As often observed, and the book should be considered as the best ever produced I agree on that, one Courtnall plan is just grasping a very little part of what happened as a whole. The guitar studied in the book is a cypress one, from 1924 it is said. I have in mind a later guitar (from the mid thirties, in BRW) MAYBE directed toward a player with a more classical repertoire. The differences are, compared with Courtnall's example chiefly a much thicker spruce top and a five legs fan strutting. No visible slant .This guitar is considered both by my Maestro, and a couple of very respected local collectors, as one of his best remaining ones outside the Museums.
My feeling is that you will have problems getting full light on the wide qiuestion of what was really THE Santos MODEL... since it evolved much with time. But maybe the very thin info I collected can make you feel a little more relax about the precise question you are asking.
Simon Magennis
Posts: 471
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:51 am
Location: Menorca. Spain.

Re: Hernandez Santos lower harmonic bar position?

Post by Simon Magennis »

Thank you Alain,

That is very useful. It is interesting about the thickness. Curiously, my guitar that my teacher likes best is more or less (I don't worry about a little deviation from the paper plan) based on the H.S. in Courtnall but the top is definitely thicker. I didn't record the thickness.

Regards,

Simon
Bill Hicklin
Posts: 72
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:16 pm

Re: Hernandez Santos lower harmonic bar position?

Post by Bill Hicklin »

One wonders to what extent details of bracing patterns really make a difference. Some things, like slanted harmonic bars and the like, seem to derive from an old and perhaps erroneous belief that the soundboard has bass and treble "sides" or even that different frequencies are "produced" by different regions of the soundboard. Against this we have not only the recent research in Chladni patterns and laser holography, but also the many, many successful symmetrical guitars from Torres right down to the present and the substantial success of Smallman and Dammann/Wagner classicals with completely uniform grid bracing.

It may simply be the case that any bracing which is light but provides the requisite degree of stiffness is really all that matters.
Alain Bieber
Posts: 108
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:28 pm

Re: Hernandez Santos lower harmonic bar position?

Post by Alain Bieber »

Simon, one possible fate of any old and semi precious guitar is to have been revarnished several time during their now long life. This often implies some scraping and/or sanding. So the thicknesses noted in the books, even when very serious alas can be only approximations.Courtnall knew that and gave, my feeling, very thin info on thicknesses.

Hi Bill, I agree with your stated indifference toward local features of a classical guitar strutting system. Up to a point.. one of my pet ideas is to believe that the treatment of the transverse bars is important.. as is the nature of the linings.. probably more important than the strutting.
Smallman 's are different animals. You cannot infer anything from their features that would concern standard style instruments.. my feeling. Are you sure their grids are uniform? I know almost nothing about them, but I had the feeling that the carbon fiber density was not uniform.
I realize I do not know the way a Dammann-Wagner Nomex guitar is strutted. I welcome any good info on that.
Simon Magennis
Posts: 471
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:51 am
Location: Menorca. Spain.

Re: Hernandez Santos lower harmonic bar position?

Post by Simon Magennis »

Thanks both.

@Alain. Yes I agree about the finishing. I have long suspected that most of the thinning around the edges is to do with scraping/sanding the edges/purfling/binding and may have a fortuitous effect of allowing the top to move more freely. :-)
Bill Hicklin
Posts: 72
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:16 pm

Re: Hernandez Santos lower harmonic bar position?

Post by Bill Hicklin »

Alain: here's a smallman-style braced top: http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/wp- ... ttice1.jpg (not a commercial site)
Clay Schaeffer
Posts: 1674
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:04 pm

Re: Hernandez Santos lower harmonic bar position?

Post by Clay Schaeffer »

Hi Bill,
Perhaps the variation in bracing is done not so much to enhance responsiveness and projection as to influence tone color. Transversely braced guitars sound different than fan braced guitars. Angling the fans more or less affects the transverse to longitudinal stiffness ratio, which may affect the relative amplitudes of the upper partials. Slanting the harmonic bar and making the top respond less uniformly might also do this. I agree with Alain that it is probably a "second decimal" thing when it comes to acoustical performance.
Perhaps some of the criticism of the Smallman design is because of the uniformity of the grid bracing. The soundboards being so thin may they may not be able to color the voice of the guitar as much as we expect.
Alan Carruth
Posts: 1265
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:11 pm

Re: Hernandez Santos lower harmonic bar position?

Post by Alan Carruth »

Clay Schaeffer wrote:
"I agree with Alain that it is probably a "second decimal" thing when it comes to acoustical performance."

That's almost certainly true when it comes to measured specs, but when you're talking about something as highly developed as the guitar, those little things can be important. Santos made those changes for some reason, and probably did it enough times that he figured out what sort of effects it would have. When he wanted that sound, he'd use that feature. The problem is that we don't know why he did it that way in any particular case: was it something the customer wanted, a problem with the wood, or maybe he just did that on alternate Thursdays?

Alan Carruth / Luthier
Clay Schaeffer
Posts: 1674
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:04 pm

Re: Hernandez Santos lower harmonic bar position?

Post by Clay Schaeffer »

Alan Carruth wrote:
"The problem is that we don't know why he did it that way in any particular case: was it something the customer wanted, a problem with the wood, or maybe he just did that on alternate Thursdays?"
That sounds pretty "second decimal" to me. <g>
Which is not to say "second decimal" things don't matter, only that how and when to apply them may depend on having the wood in hand and the experience gained through building. The difference between a good guitar and a great guitar is probably the sum of "second decimal" things
I think there are fallacies on both ends of the bracing arguments. Those who copy designs, bracing and top thicknesses to the "nth" degree and say they are building a "Hauser" or "Santos" guitar , and those that say any bracing pattern can work.
Don't get me wrong, I think there are many valuable lessons to be learned by studying the masters and copying them, and discussing various aspects of their work, but that some "second decimal" things only come through experience.
Alain Bieber
Posts: 108
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:28 pm

Re: Hernandez Santos lower harmonic bar position?

Post by Alain Bieber »

Being possibly misunderstood in my "second decimal" statement (post above) let me precise that I used that terminology only in the context of the precise question asked by Simon. To say that a LIMITED slant (because I supposed Santos Hernandez never did more than that in his time because he very likely was not ready to slant a bar like Ramirez III ten or fifteen years later ) could not bring effects more than a second decimal is not exactly the same as saying that "any bracing pattern can work".
I agree with you Clay, fallacies are present at both ends of your (super-extreme) examples. Alas for this difficult activity that we are sharing at this Forum, I fear, fallacies also exist in between <g>.
Bill Hicklin
Posts: 72
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:16 pm

Re: Hernandez Santos lower harmonic bar position?

Post by Bill Hicklin »

When we're talking about "second-decimal" matters, are we by this point talking about the difference between "good" and "bad", or just a difference between flavors, a good T-bone vs a good ribeye? From my perspective as a bumbling amateur, my ambition is limited to trying for a steak that isn't burned, gristly or tough as shoe-leather.

Silly analogies aside, the impression I get (the scientifically-informed can correct me) is that these 'second-decimal effects,' in other words the complex interaction of upper-end partials that define what we call 'tone' or 'timbre', at least to this point defy quantitative analyisis. Segovia made poor Hauser try again and again until he got the "Spanish" sound the maestro wanted; and Romanillos talks about a "Spanish" sound that he thinks e.g. Fleta got away from. But is this in any way measurable? Is there any test apparatus which can tell us with numbers what a Fleta 'sounds' like as opposed to a Romanillos?
User avatar
Waddy Thomson
Posts: 270
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Charlotte, NC

Re: Hernandez Santos lower harmonic bar position?

Post by Waddy Thomson »

Build the guitar as close to the plan as you can. Any additional information you can glean will be a plus. If the plan is decent, so will the guitar be, if you have tight joints and clean work. After you have one under your belt, you can try some different approaches. Your first will probably surprise you in it's quality, if you go slow, and follow the plan.
Bill Hicklin
Posts: 72
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:16 pm

Re: Hernandez Santos lower harmonic bar position?

Post by Bill Hicklin »

Thanks, Waddy. I'm well past my first build, I'm simply wondering about the mysterious world of better builders than I and their control of 'tone,' and whether there is now or in future any way to make this voodoo quantifiable and thus sharable and repeatable.


But while talking about the effects of bracing plans, has anyone anything to say about noticeable effects (if any) of the scheme Torres and Hauser sometimes used, of extending the outer fan braces through arches in the lower tone bar into the upper bout? Meaningful, or just something that looks great in one's in-progress photos?
Clay Schaeffer
Posts: 1674
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:04 pm

Re: Hernandez Santos lower harmonic bar position?

Post by Clay Schaeffer »

Hi Bill,
I think Bouchet and Romanillos have also extended the fans through the harmonic bar on some of their creations. This seems counter to the modern school of thinking where the vibrating area is restricted by heavy strutting in the upper bout and massive tentalones surrounding the lower bout. Could this be a struggle between "Power" and "tone color"? <g>
Simon Magennis
Posts: 471
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:51 am
Location: Menorca. Spain.

Re: Hernandez Santos lower harmonic bar position?

Post by Simon Magennis »

Alain Bieber wrote:... I have in mind a later guitar (from the mid thirties, in BRW) MAYBE directed toward a player with a more classical repertoire. The differences are, compared with Courtnall's example chiefly a much thicker spruce top and a five legs fan strutting. ...
@ Alain

Do you recall whether this fan is wide and low like in the Courtnall book? (7mm wide, 3.5mm high).
Alain Bieber
Posts: 108
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:28 pm

Re: Hernandez Santos lower harmonic bar position?

Post by Alain Bieber »

Without certitude I would say yes. The guitar was a very simple design... except the very classy rosette! This kind of rosette is a totally unreachable goal for me.
Simon Magennis
Posts: 471
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:51 am
Location: Menorca. Spain.

Re: Hernandez Santos lower harmonic bar position?

Post by Simon Magennis »

Thanks Alain.
Alain Bieber
Posts: 108
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:28 pm

Re: Hernandez Santos lower harmonic bar position?

Post by Alain Bieber »

Simon,
I had an informal talk with my Maestro who is the renowned Santos replicator here. He has inspected many Santos instruments during the last three decades. Once the distance with the guidance of Manuel Ramirez was taken, by force since M.R. died rather young, he thinks Santos became the guy in Madrid with the largest width of interpretation of the local school standards (as essentially expressed by the guitars made in the workshop headed by Manuel).
Very large differences from one model to the next one, without very precise templates or other tricks to get consistency. He was above that apparently. So one cannot say he copied Santos, he just copied a model out of Santos workshops.
Post Reply

Return to “Flat-Top Acoustic Guitars and Bass Guitars”