A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest

[Ryan Mazzocco]

This isn't really a question, just more of an observation. As I continue to build more and more guitars I have a larger sampling I get more of a sense of what their voice tends to be. Based on my own assessment and what other trusted people have told me I think they have a very balanced sound with booming lows and crisp, clear highs and mids.
After doing a few shows and having lots of people handling and trying out my guitars I have noticed a strange phenomenon. Overwhelmingly, the response if very positive, with the exception of only 2 guys I can think of that had negative comments. But we usually talk a little bit either before or after they try the guitars and I get a sense of what they're used to. You know something? Whatever they're used to is usually pretty close to what they hear. I get Martin players that are impressed by the low end. I get Taylor players that are impressed by the high end. So it seems that whatever sound they are used to is what stands out to them and that's what they hear. Strange, the same guitar played by two different people, but describe the sound in a totally different way.
Psycho-acoustics is a weird twisted subject, man.

[Randy Roberts]

Ryan,
A great and timely quote for all who build instruments to resign themselves to...

If you haven't already got it, This Is Your Brain On Music by Daniel Levitin is a must read. Former musician, sound engineer, record producer, segue to University McGill neuroscience research.
Sooo much makes sooo much more sense after having read it.

[David King]

I've always noticed that the prettiest guitars invariably sound the best to the most people.

[Craig Bumgarner]

I friend once told me the only thing guitar buyers care about is low action and rosewood. I'm not that cynical, but most players do focus on fewer elements of the build than us builders do. I'm finishing up a custom build now and after 88 email exchanges, the buyer has yet to ask me about tone or anything related to sound. On the one I start next week, the buyer doesn't care about much except the tone, volume and playability. Back and sides? "Whatever!" Top? "Spruce I guess" What kind? "Whatever".

I think in both cases maybe the buyers are not picky about the unmentioned elements or are just trusting (assuming?) these elements, based on my previous builds, will suit their purposes. I prefer it this way actually. Building a guitar for someone who wants to control every single element can be very time consuming and sometimes goes against notions I have on what makes a good guitar.

[Pat Foster]

I've found what David said to be true too, to a point. This is a broad generalization, but older players seem less interested in bling. I have one very plain guitar that I think is the best-sounding one I've ever built. Plain padouk and a plain Sitka top. The only players who notice its tone are the older ones, a few of them trained in guitar performance. At shows, the younger ones don't even notice it. Depends on the audience too. A show with a lot of fancy guitars is going to attract a different crowd than say, a craft exhibiti at a bluegrass/folk festival. Those guys wouldn't get caught dead on stage with a blingy OM with bevels, at least not the ones I know!

[Rodger Knox]

I've noticed that...

[Ryan Mazzocco]

I've noticed that...

I thought you would understand. I think that should be the signature line for all of us. Maybe even the motto for all luthiers

[Jason Rodgers]

I had a recent encounter with a guitarist that gave me some new/different things to think about in my building. This summer, I reconnected with my college guitar teacher, a well-known and respected local jazz guy, who I hadn't seen in over 10 years. I brought three guitars to his house for him to play and get some feedback. He played each one in turn, asking a few questions about pickup switching, but otherwise completely focused on them. To my dismay, this took all of 5 minutes or less! In that time, he had sufficiently absorbed all he needed to know, and then he was done.

We retired to another room and talked some more, but long story short, he didn't care much about all of the construction details that I had agonized over or that I thought brought interest/uniqueness/value to the instrument. For him, a working musician in his 50s who has played 5-7 nights a week for over 30 years, a guitar is a tool. You can have many in your arsenal, but it must have something, SOMETHING, that inspires you to make music. It doesn't matter what it's made of, or what shape it is, or whose name is on the headstock: it needs to be reliable and have soul.

How is this changing my thinking as a builder? Well, being part of this new, Internet luthier generation, my world has thus far been populated by other builders in similar situations, geeking out over woods and finishes and headstock angles and things that builders like to talk about. Nothing wrong with this, and I appreciate all of you who have become part of that world and the education it has given me. But I know that I need to get in touch with the players who I hope will buy and play my guitars, because without them, I'm building a whole bunch of interesting/unique guitars for myself.

[Barry Daniels]

Most guitar players have no idea what it takes to build a fine guitar. Listen and be guided by them at your own peril. They often don't care about the details, but somebody needs to.

[Eric Knapp]

I'm sensing that there is a tension between builders and players. This seems common in many fields, like software development. I've hung out with a lot of musicians and makers of things musicians use. I used to make PA systems and high-end music systems for homes. The thing I noticed with good musicians is they are hearing the music, not the thing that is making the sound. Whether it's a speaker, an amp, or an instrument, once the music starts they are hearing the licks, the phrasing, the tempo, the instrumentation, etc. The thing that makes the sound disappears. I heard an interview with Pat Metheny where he talks about why he loves his Manzer guitars. He says they vanish when he starts playing and he is only with the music.

The beauty and care you all put into your instruments are secondary concerns to a non-builder player. They want an instrument that helps them play and gets out of the way. That can be a D'Aquisto or an old Harmony. They usually don't care. I was looking at an old Gibson flattop once and thinking of buying it. It was ugly as sin, but it played better than almost any guitar I'd ever held. And the tone was wonderful. I was counting pennies and trying to sell some stuff when the guitar was stolen from the little local shop. I was devastated and so were many others.

OK, I've rambled enough and you've all heard this many times before. Sometimes I have to take a break from musicians when they start driving me crazy.

-Eric

[Jason Rodgers]

Most guitar players have no idea what it takes to build a fine guitar. Listen and be guided by them at your own peril. They often don't care about the details, but somebody needs to.

Oh, for sure. I'm not saying I'm abandoning my ideas or my luthier and forum compadres, I'm just saying that I personally need to balance that perspective with that of the player. This could fit into another current thread discussing sales and marketing. My guitar teacher gave me good feedback, and I've had a handful of good players and luthiers say very good things about my craftsmanship and playability; but getting back to Ryan's OP, almost all of these people focused on aspects of my guitars that either a) overlooked details that I thought were important/interesting/unique/clever, or b) are details that I thought were a given and maybe overlooked myself. In other words, there were some aspects that the builder and player agreed upon, but others where we saw past each other. I need to find that balance.

[Ryan Mazzocco]

Just because most musicians may not care doesn't mean it's not important. I don't know or care how airbags work. I'm not going to sit down with an engineer and go over all the different aspects of why one airbag may be better than another. What's important to me is that it works and saves lives. But you can bet the details are important to the manufacturers and the engineers that designed it. Before I got into luthiery I had absolutely no idea what was involved in making a guitar, or frankly, even the basics of what makes a guitar work. I just wanted it to sound a play well, however that was done. But as the luthiers, We have to care. we have to care a LOT. All those fine little details that no one cares about, they would find they care a great deal if they aren't there because they end up with a low quality guitar. That's why we have these forums: so we can geek out on this stuff together because we know the people reading threads care just as much about this stuff as we do.

[Jason Rodgers]

Just because most musicians may not care doesn't mean it's not important. I don't know or care how airbags work. I'm not going to sit down with an engineer and go over all the different aspects of why one airbag may be better than another. What's important to me is that it works and saves lives. But you can bet the details are important to the manufacturers and the engineers that designed it.

Right. I'm not arguing this point, just commenting that these conversations have made me pick my head up from the bench and consider a wider perspective in my own work. A car is built by many teams of experts specializing in different aspects of the vehicle. While we appreciate the airbag guys, they may not be the best at body styling, cabin comfort/amenities, or sales. As the sole builders of our product, we have to be the engineers, the stylists, the marketers, and more. I'm just realizing that I have done good work in some areas of the craft, have a lot to learn in others, and right now listening more to players may help me find that next level.

[Steve Sawyer]

I posted awhile back about a book my wife bought for me, lots of short stories about musicians and their guitars, and really, none of the musicians seemed to make any reference to the craftsmanship in the instrument - just the way it sounded and felt and yeah, allowed them to make music.

It's often the same in my experience with fine furniture - if it fits the space and serves the function and looks nice - the customer is fine with it. All the loving attention to detail in the wood selection, and grain-matching and joinery and finishing is completely submerged into its utilitarian essence.

But that doesn't mean I didn't derive a great deal of pleasure from indulging my craft in its creation.

[Bryan Bear]

I posted awhile back about a book my wife bought for me, lots of short stories about musicians and their guitars, and really, none of the musicians seemed to make any reference to the craftsmanship in the instrument - just the way it sounded and felt and yeah, allowed them to make music.

It's often the same in my experience with fine furniture - if it fits the space and serves the function and looks nice - the customer is fine with it. All the loving attention to detail in the wood selection, and grain-matching and joinery and finishing is completely submerged into its utilitarian essence.

But that doesn't mean I didn't derive a great deal of pleasure from indulging my craft in its creation.

To this point, sometimes it only seams like agonizing details are ignored, because they are well executed they may seem "just right" and not stand out or garner comment. If they weren't well executed they would indeed stand out. To use the fine furniture example, few people will say "Wow, I really like how well the grain of all these pieces are matched." but if the maker didn't take the time to worry about such things plenty of people would be thinking things like "That's a nice piece but that one rail that is a slightly different color kind of bugs me".

I wish I had a better eye for aesthetics/design. I always envy people who can put design elements together that work really well; I'm even more jealous of people who can explain why or what small changes will make a design better. I just can't do that. I can recognize a nicely designed element when I see it but am at a loss as to how to do it myself. I tend to be too heavy handed when trying to be creative. I would love to agonize over a unique design or element and have it go without comment. To me, that would mean I achieved something that works well without standing out too much.

[Barry Daniels]

The difficulty of pleasing musicians is that a LOT of what they view as important is the intangible stuff. They have difficulty in describing what they want but they seem to know it when they feel, see or hear it. Also, every musician is different. Makes it tough for us builders, especially if you are building a custom instrument to the client's specs. I have sworn off that approach, but then I don't depend upon building for my financial support.

[Pat Foster]

I think "sweating the small stuff," like most of us probably do, could go unnoticed by all but a few players, but we still strive get those things right. Not only does is it satisfying for us as we build, there seems to be a kind of language of good practice that might only be noticed by other builders. For myself, I go after that small stuff because I know that among builders (the ones I've had contact with, seen each others' work), it's the right thing to do. That area of building seems like a whole other dimension than tone and playability alone.

I had a player look at my guitars and I was astounded at what he could discern. He was a professional, highly trained and educated in music. I appreciated that before he even looked at the guitars, he played them (John Greven does the same thing) and then did a thorough check on tone, balance up and down the neck and across strings, and playability, but he also noticed things like the type of neck joint, miters on the side purfling, finish and fit and aesthietics. And he's not a builder. In eleven years of building, I've only seen this one player that was able to do all that.

Some remodeling projects I've had done on the house have brought out something similar. I had a contractor do a remodel on our kitchen and main bath. I had glowing recommendations from friends who'd had him do work for them, but I was less than pleased. While his work looked OK and might have been "good" to the untrained eye, I could see where he'd taken shortcuts and done a few things that weren't "right" though it got the job done. He tried his best, I think, but his work was amateurish in the eyes of a couple of contractors who saw his work. He wasn't sweating the small stuff like I think a more experienced, truly professional contractor would have. But the price was right.

Pat

[Randolph Rhett]

Part of my tension is, who am I building for? Musicians or guitar geeks? The musicians I know comment on the neck, how low the action, how good the dynamics, balance, etc. then there are those who want to know what wood, scale length, have mirrors to look inside, what kind of finish, etc.

I consider myself a musician. I didn't have the chops, courage, or stomach to do it for a living. I admit to having little patience for the guitar fetishist. But one musician friend has two Martin D-28s. Paid about $1500 each used. Another one does all he needs on an Epi Joe Pass. Cost him about $900 used. Both love the guitars I build, but have no interest in spending even $2,000 on an instrument let alone two to three times that.

On the other hand, I recently sold one guitar to a tech exec in his fifties. I think he bought the guitar solely to tell his friends he had a carbon fiber archtop. He obsessed on the fretboard wood, whether to have a TOM, bone or all wood bridge, and whether to do open back tuners.

Sometimes I think if I want people to buy my guitars I should be buying old Gibsons and bling them out with walnut burl veneers, shell inlay, and boutique pickups. Musicians don't need and can't afford boutique luthier guitars.

[Steve Sawyer]

Randolph - what you're doing is market segmentation. Guitar buyers are not all alike. You're identifying how they differ and which segment will pay your price for the product you produce. The next trick is how to repeatably get your product in front of that segment.

[Brian Evans]

To me, much of what luthiers do to create luxury in their guitars is done to justify the price and create an "outlier" guitar - one that visually stands out. Inlay work, solid wood bindings, figured wood tops, sides and backs, custom engraved tuners - they don't affect the sound at all. They create the overall impact of the guitar when it's in a glass display case or a photograph. A great luthier over on the AGF recently mused about how he could build $2,000 guitars if he just built the guitar - all of the tone, playability, quality of all of his guitars - but left off the luxury touches that went into his $6,000 guitars. What he was saying, to me, was that over half of the effort and cost in his guitars went into not the underlying quality of the work, the sound or the basic materials, but into the individualized artistic expression of the beauty of the finish and appointments of the instrument. He also acknowledged, I think anyway, that he didn't see a market for his "cheap guitar". Plastic binding doesn't sell well, I guess.

What does this mean to me? It means that the vast majority of guitarists are buying a work of art, not a tool for making music, when it comes to potential customers for people on this forum. I also think that people on this forum are very interesting in making works of art, or at least fully realizing their vision in their work. So they sweat the details, hand finish the linings, create beauty in things that won't be seen once the box is closed. Why? Not because it adds tone, volume, playability, longevity, stability or anything else that is functional, but because they can and it makes them feel good. The customer won't know, but if you lavish that detail on the tailblock, you're going to equally lavish detail on the rest of the instrument, the player is going to be in awe of the instrument when first seen, let alone played, and it's going to sound fantastic because building tone into an instrument is as much lavishing detail on the things that just happen to produce the sound, as well as the things that look beautiful. Great sounding instruments are almost a given, if you sweat the details.