Afraid I'm with Chuck....
Your enthusiasm and love of building these things shines through in most all of your posts. But you need to keep in mind that it's YOUR enthusiasm for this game, it's not necessarily the next guy's. This is your dream, not his.
When you have the opportunity to be talking to someone and guitars come up, by all means let your enthusiasm beam through. But it's kinda unrealistic, and asking for a lot of disappointment to expect someone else to be excited about a subject just because you love it.
Take whatever comments are made as useful feedback, and keep headed down the path you want to go down.
The guitars are being seen. They are being played. let them see if they can fly under their own power.
You've raised them well, now you need to let them go, grasshopper.
impatience or justified frustration?
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Randy Roberts
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Barry Daniels
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Re: impatience or justified frustration?
Don't worry about worrying. After all, they are your babies that you are entrusting to others. It's normal.
MIMF Staff
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Randolph Rhett
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Re: impatience or justified frustration?
I don't want to be a wet blanket, and there are already plenty of posts on the business of elite lutherie, but I seriously hope you are not expecting this to be a viable small business right out the gate. Out of curiosity I went to your website to see your pricing. Far from being too high, I can't imagine you will ever break even at those prices.
That is the basic problem with this business model. Working alone you MIGHT build 15 guitars a year. They would cost you a couple of hundred each in materials. If you divide your shop and tool costs over those 15 guitars, you can add another couple of hundred. If you're lucky you can build 15 guitars a year working full time building and it will only cost you $7-$10k. Only you know your living costs, but those 10-15 guitars will have to bring in the rest.
You can't afford to compete with cheap Chinese imports. You can't even compete with entry Martins, Taylors, or Gibsons. The economies of scale make it possible for them to sell guitars for a quarter of what you can. To have a viable business you have to find 15 buyers a year who are looking for Rolex, not Casio. Problem is, no one buys a Rolex because it keeps better time. They buy it because it says "Rolex". Imagine some young guy in Switzerland trying to hand build watches and sell them for the same price as a Rolex because he will starve if he sells it for less!
I have no doubt your guitars are every bit as nice as as any $6k+ guitar out there. I think my archtops sound and play as nice or better than any Benedetto. The problem is that our market is VERY small, and is highly motivated by brand and prestige. They are only marginally motivated by sound or playability. On the positive side, they tend not to be very price sensitive. Your guitars have no recognizable brand and offer the buyer little prestige. That means that your market is a small subset of an already small group. However, if you can connect with a real buyer your pricing is not going to turn them away.
Those commissioned salespeople know how unlikely a sale is. I'm not surprised they aren't overly excited about your guitars. That is no reflection on the beauty and playability of your guitars. It just reflects the economic reality.
The truth is your guitars are in the show window to draw people in, get them excited about owning a nice guitar, and priming them to pull the trigger on that Martin rather than ordering an "Applause" from Musicians Friend. That's a GOOD thing! You should be proud that your guitars are considered eye candy by the store owner. Eventually, over the course of a couple of years, you may actually get someone in the shop looking for the best damned guitar he can find regardless of brand or prestige. You will certainly never build brand or prestige if your guitars are stuck on a wall in your shop.
So relax. The guitars are built and they have a home. Focus your energy on building some more and finding what makes your guitars special. If and when those guitars sell rejoice! Consider it found money. If you need them to sell, and sell quickly, for economic reasons you are likely in the wrong business. And don't worry about the salesmen. Of course it would be easier to sell your guitars if they could sell them for $500, but that is not reality. When they do get the rare buyer looking for a true "boutique" guitar ready to part with real cash those guys will suddenly discover that they always LOVED your guitars and can't imagine a better way for a person to spend their money.
That is the basic problem with this business model. Working alone you MIGHT build 15 guitars a year. They would cost you a couple of hundred each in materials. If you divide your shop and tool costs over those 15 guitars, you can add another couple of hundred. If you're lucky you can build 15 guitars a year working full time building and it will only cost you $7-$10k. Only you know your living costs, but those 10-15 guitars will have to bring in the rest.
You can't afford to compete with cheap Chinese imports. You can't even compete with entry Martins, Taylors, or Gibsons. The economies of scale make it possible for them to sell guitars for a quarter of what you can. To have a viable business you have to find 15 buyers a year who are looking for Rolex, not Casio. Problem is, no one buys a Rolex because it keeps better time. They buy it because it says "Rolex". Imagine some young guy in Switzerland trying to hand build watches and sell them for the same price as a Rolex because he will starve if he sells it for less!
I have no doubt your guitars are every bit as nice as as any $6k+ guitar out there. I think my archtops sound and play as nice or better than any Benedetto. The problem is that our market is VERY small, and is highly motivated by brand and prestige. They are only marginally motivated by sound or playability. On the positive side, they tend not to be very price sensitive. Your guitars have no recognizable brand and offer the buyer little prestige. That means that your market is a small subset of an already small group. However, if you can connect with a real buyer your pricing is not going to turn them away.
Those commissioned salespeople know how unlikely a sale is. I'm not surprised they aren't overly excited about your guitars. That is no reflection on the beauty and playability of your guitars. It just reflects the economic reality.
The truth is your guitars are in the show window to draw people in, get them excited about owning a nice guitar, and priming them to pull the trigger on that Martin rather than ordering an "Applause" from Musicians Friend. That's a GOOD thing! You should be proud that your guitars are considered eye candy by the store owner. Eventually, over the course of a couple of years, you may actually get someone in the shop looking for the best damned guitar he can find regardless of brand or prestige. You will certainly never build brand or prestige if your guitars are stuck on a wall in your shop.
So relax. The guitars are built and they have a home. Focus your energy on building some more and finding what makes your guitars special. If and when those guitars sell rejoice! Consider it found money. If you need them to sell, and sell quickly, for economic reasons you are likely in the wrong business. And don't worry about the salesmen. Of course it would be easier to sell your guitars if they could sell them for $500, but that is not reality. When they do get the rare buyer looking for a true "boutique" guitar ready to part with real cash those guys will suddenly discover that they always LOVED your guitars and can't imagine a better way for a person to spend their money.
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Ryan Mazzocco
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Re: impatience or justified frustration?
I've stayed away from posting on the forum for a few days so I could just take in what you all are telling me and let it soak in, maybe gain a little perspective. I want to thank everyone who helped me readjust my thinking in this very pivotal and uncharted time of my life in luthiery. I was in a weird mood there for a while, but thanks to all of you I've got through it.
For me personally, I find this entire thread quite embarrassing and wouldn't mind if it all just disappeared (hint hint
)
For me personally, I find this entire thread quite embarrassing and wouldn't mind if it all just disappeared (hint hint
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Eric Knapp
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Re: impatience or justified frustration?
I understand the embarrassment but the thread has been very educational for this full newbie. I think it will be read and appreciated by many new people over time. The issues, feelings, and opinions expressed here are an important part of making instruments. I'll be an amateur forever, most likely. But, I'm sure the urge to sell things will come up this discussion will be remembered and probably re-read a few times. To get this kind of input from experienced people is a wonderful part of the internet era. Thank you.Ryan Mazzocco wrote:I've stayed away from posting on the forum for a few days so I could just take in what you all are telling me and let it soak in, maybe gain a little perspective. I want to thank everyone who helped me readjust my thinking in this very pivotal and uncharted time of my life in luthiery. I was in a weird mood there for a while, but thanks to all of you I've got through it.
For me personally, I find this entire thread quite embarrassing and wouldn't mind if it all just disappeared (hint hint
-Eric
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Randy Roberts
- Posts: 465
- Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 9:11 pm
- Location: Omaha, NE (a suburb of Iowa)
Re: impatience or justified frustration?
Ryan,
Forget any embarrassment. Every one of us has gone through similar feelings with varying depths and durations.
You have shared what a lot of us have hidden, and your a "better man than I Gunga-Din"
I agree with Eric, this will be a more valuable thread than most,to a lot of people. Thanks for contributing it to us.
Forget any embarrassment. Every one of us has gone through similar feelings with varying depths and durations.
You have shared what a lot of us have hidden, and your a "better man than I Gunga-Din"
I agree with Eric, this will be a more valuable thread than most,to a lot of people. Thanks for contributing it to us.