Glue for celluloid?

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Chris Richards
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Glue for celluloid?

Post by Chris Richards »

I'm restoring a Hofner violin bass, one of the jobs is fitting an original celluloid headstock veneer and I wanted to ask what would be the best glue to use, it's going over unfinished wood, although if need be I could easily apply a coat of sanding sealer.

Thank you
Chris
David King
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Re: Glue for celluloid?

Post by David King »

Celluloid has a bad habit of shrinking over the long term as it off-gasses. That shrinkage may not be significant enough to curl the headstock but I'd be concerned about that possibility.
Arnt Rian
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Re: Glue for celluloid?

Post by Arnt Rian »

My experience with celluloid is limited to working with bindings on guitars and mandolins, where I usually use Duco or a similar glue. I have also made my own glue with scraps of binding material dissolved in acetone, which also works just fine. I remember someone mentioned here that they had good results by wiping celluloid bindings with acetone, right before glueing them with an ordinary wood glue, such as Titebond. I have found that the more acetone (or solvent based glue) you use, the more the material swells, which means you have to wait longer before it shrinks back down so you can trim it. This might not matter much in your case, for regluing the original celluloid headstock veneer.

This is from American Art Plastics web site:
Celluloid is easily glued using epoxy, cyanoacrylates, and traditional animal glues. It may also be solvent welded with acetone, MEK (methyl ethyl ketone), or THF (Tetrahydrofuran).
Celluloid can readily be patched in case of damage or porosity using a paste made from scrap shavings dissolved in one of these solvents. The patch should be allowed to cure thoroughly before being worked down flush. This may take weeks, depending on the solvent, the temperature, and the size of the patch.


http://www.americanartplastics.com/cell ... ling.shtml
Chris Richards
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Re: Glue for celluloid?

Post by Chris Richards »

Thanks for the helpful replies, I'm a bit concerned regarding the shrinkage and swelling properties of celluloid so will probably try Titebond in the first instance and see how it goes...
Chris Reed
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Re: Glue for celluloid?

Post by Chris Reed »

Titebond doesn't work for me. I use CA, but there is a risk of distorting the celluloid.
Arnt Rian
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Re: Glue for celluloid?

Post by Arnt Rian »

I doubt you will have good results with Titebond unless you wipe the celluloid with acetone prior to applying the glue, and then you will still have the swelling issue. In your case, I think I would try epoxy, but be careful not to make a mess, and clean spills an adjacent surfaces with alcohol before it cures.
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Steve Sawyer
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Re: Glue for celluloid?

Post by Steve Sawyer »

David King wrote:Celluloid has a bad habit of shrinking over the long term as it off-gasses. That shrinkage may not be significant enough to curl the headstock but I'd be concerned about that possibility.
Huh...

I don't recall seeing that shrinkage problem with pickguards, and aren't many pickguards made of celluloid? Or is the shrinkage not that evident in something screwed to the substrate as opposed to being glued?
==Steve==
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Barry Daniels
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Re: Glue for celluloid?

Post by Barry Daniels »

Yeah, it is more evident when they are glued, but I have seem some degraded screwed-on guards too. When you see one it is quite evident, but we are mostly talking about very old guitars.
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Stephen Neal Saqui
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Re: Glue for celluloid?

Post by Stephen Neal Saqui »

I agree on using epoxy in this case. You'll get good adhesion and less reaction or distortion from the celluloid. Taping off the edges and attention to careful wiping off excess epoxy should give you good results.
Todd Stock
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Re: Glue for celluloid?

Post by Todd Stock »

I think I would look at other plastics glues that are not full of acetone - specifically, glues such as IPS Weld-On #1829 which handles plastics, wood, and other materials. Unlike Duco, Weld-On formulas are primarily methylene chloride, so less swelling and potential for shrinkage. If the plastic can be roughed up for a good mechanical hold, epoxy will also hold.

Here's the link:

https://www.amazon.com/Weld-Adhesive-Pl ... B00J9FGMKE
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Barry Daniels
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Re: Glue for celluloid?

Post by Barry Daniels »

My use of CA with plastic bindings also showed that adhesion was assisted when roughing up the surfaces. I used a full sheet of 100 grit sandpaper taped onto a one square foot marble tile.
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Arnt Rian
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Re: Glue for celluloid?

Post by Arnt Rian »

Steve Sawyer wrote:I don't recall seeing that shrinkage problem with pickguards, and aren't many pickguards made of celluloid? Or is the shrinkage not that evident in something screwed to the substrate as opposed to being glued?
It is pretty evident on some old Martins for example, where the wood under the pickguard often cups or sometimes even cracks next to it, as the celluloid shrinks. I have also seen plenty old Gibson mandolin pickguards that were warped, some deteriorate even rot away completely. Then you see others that hold up just fine, I suppose there are slightly differences recipes from different the manufacturers. Some of the oldest stuff seems to be quite good, for example my Gibson A jr. from 1913 has both a guard and binding in perfect shape, go figure.
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Beate Ritzert
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Re: Glue for celluloid?

Post by Beate Ritzert »

Todd Stock wrote:I think I would look at other plastics glues that are not full of acetone ...
To my knowledge the German luthiers (who often used lots of celluloid in especially their Archtops) were using Aceton directly to glue on the celluloid.

regarding shrinking: i own two old Archtops. Medium quality ones. Celluloid on the headstock, in the inlays, the bindings of the fingerboard and even the nut. Nothing visible except an uneven shape of the binding. Everything else is fine.
Chris Richards
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Re: Glue for celluloid?

Post by Chris Richards »

Thanks for all your replies, in the end I went with epoxy and apart from a time consuming clear up it stuck really well without any ill effects to the celluloid. But now I have ANOTHER problem... Although the customer is 100% happy with the job he has just bought the vintage correct overlay (found on ebay) and wants me to replace it again...Grrrrrrr. So my next question is how do I un-stick epoxy! I have a feeling that this is gonna be a nightmare!
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Beate Ritzert
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Re: Glue for celluloid?

Post by Beate Ritzert »

This stuff is also suitable - not surprising if You look at the data sheet. I used it when i built my archtop:

http://www.uhu-profishop.com/downloads/ ... t_engl.pdf
Arnt Rian
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Re: Glue for celluloid?

Post by Arnt Rian »

Heat will soften many types of epoxy enough that you can get it apart. The heat could also damage the celluloid I guess, so it might not be a good idea in your case, unless you're prepared to scrap it.

But, why replace the original overlay if the reglue went well?
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Re: Glue for celluloid?

Post by David King »

Could you just glue the overlay over the first layer? Many epoxies get weak and crumbly at around 170-180ºF if you decide to go that route. I bet you could also just break the bond with a knife but heating it first would help a lot.
Chris Richards
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Re: Glue for celluloid?

Post by Chris Richards »

Thanks for the help guys....Well I managed to get the overlay off with a hot knife carefully working it in to the joint, it took a while but was 100% successful. I now have the new original one glued on but over the years it has shrunk a little in length so I will have to trim the end of the headstock to fit, fortunately I'm pretty sure I'll be able to fit the strip tuners ok, a bit of "wiggle room" with the tuner bushings may be necessary to negate the shrinkage but I think I'm almost there...

Thanks again
Chris
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