Painting and Varnishing

[Ben Henderson]

Hi - This is my first post here. I have bough an electric guitar kit which I hope to complete for my wife for her christmas present. I recently visited a mandolin maker and he told me that certain paints do not work together with certain varnishes. I believe he uses cellulose based paints with Rustins varnish. I have never attempted to make or paint anything like this, and I know that it will be the painting part that ge the better of me. Do any of you have any fool proof guides to painting the body and varnishing the whole thing? Many thanks, Ben

[Rodger Knox]

No. Finishing is never foolproof.
It is the most difficult element of building to perfect.
There are lots of good guides and tutorials, but you need to pick one and follow it, there is always the possibility of compatibility problems if you use different products.
I use TruOil, it is a wipe on oil varnish and it's not too hard to get a pretty nice finish. I don't usually do any "painting", but I have used water based stain directly on the wood prior to using TruOil as the clear coat. Here's my sequence:
TruOil Finish
The pores need to be sealed, but not necessarily completely filled before you start the TruOil, I typically brush on a couple of coats of 2# cut shellac, and sand back to wood. This does not fill the pores, but it does seal them. You don't have to sand, but I prefer the appearance of the oil directly on the wood. If you do sand, you need to get all the shellac off or it will show. With the pores sealed, the first 6 coats of TruOil will fill them. The first couple of coats will take a bit more oil to seal the wood, unless you left the shellac. Once it starts to shine a little after it dries (usually 3 or 4 coats), you can use less oil. I put the TruOil on very thin, at least 4 hours between coats. Every three or four coats I'll let it dry 24 hours and level sand, starting with 400 or 600 grit, and working my way up. When I get 16 to 20 coats, and have level sanded with 1000 grit, it's almost done.

The last coat has to go on perfectly, and then I'm done. I don't sand back after building the finish as is typically done with a nitro finish. This method produces a "soft gloss" which I prefer over the appearance of nitro.

I've found it works better if you stretch it out, there's less shrinkage if you allow more drying time. I'll frequently wait 3 or 4 days to sand back, 24 hours is a minimum. I usually take at least a month, sometimes six weeks, to do a finish. It's probably only 4 hours of actual time spent, and can be done in a week, but there will be some shrinkage, similar to nitro. Nitro is sanded back, and you can also do that with TruOil, but I wouldn't advise it. It's thinner than nitro, and getting it thick enough to sand back would take 40 or 50 coats.

Do NOT wetsand at any point after you start the oil, use dry paper on a block. Wetsanding will usually guarantee witness lines.

[Steve Sawyer]

Ben - I too am new at luthiery, so someone might administer a dope-slap for my comments, but I have a lot of experience in wood finishing and can offer some advice.

If the wood on this guitar is sufficiently attractive that a clear finish would look good, I would suggest that the easiest and most forgiving finishing technique is a wipe-on varnish. A brushed-on coat of shellac, sand to 320, then a thinned coats of varnish applied with a rag, allowed to set up for 20 minutes to a half-hour then wiped off. Lightly sand when cured, then repeat this process as long as your patience holds out or until you get the finish you're happy with. You avoid the need for spraying equipment, and besides, spraying is something that takes a bit of practice to master, and you don't want to be learning that skill while trying to complete something that will obviously be a special gift. Look for some threads here on using Tru-Oil that many luthiers have used to get some very nicely finished guitars from what I've seen. There are many other products, both varnish-based and urethane-based (General Finishes makes several). Some have even had good luck with using waterborne lacquer, like Enduro-Var as a wipe-on varnish, though I have no experience with that yet.

I am getting ready to finish my first solid-body electric, and have decided to use a rattle-can opaque nitrocellulose finish, with a rattle-can nitro clearcoat (products from a company called ReRanch that specializes in guitar finishes). However, I'm also prepared to sand it all off and start over again, multiple times if necessary until I get the finish right. You're working under a deadline which is why I'd go with the wipe-on varnish.

If you have to paint it, there may be other options but I'll shut up for a moment and let other more experienced folks chime in.

[Randolph Rhett]

FYI Ben, the standard for guitars is a very high quality finish. Don't really know why, but it is. My teacher often says you are shooting for a piano finish, but that if you actually go to look at a high end piano the finish won't be anywhere near as good as you would want on a guitar! The few guys that actually sell the guitars they make sometimes will outsource the finishing out of recognition that it is an art form in itself.

I don't say that to discourage you. I just mention it because you will see A LOT of detailed discussion on this board on different finishing techniques based on pros and semi-pros trying to reach a finishing nirvana without breaking the bank in terms of time and equipment. Most will be way beyond what a hobbyist is ever going to do. Don't let it all bog you down. A wipe on finish like Tru-Oil is the easiest and first choice for most beginners. You probably won't get that flawless mirror finish people seem to expect on a guitar, but it will protect the guitar and have a nice satin sheen.

Lots of hands on tutorials on YouTube for True-Oil, even specifically applied to guitars. Watch a few and you will get the idea fairly quickly.

[Steve Sawyer]

You probably won't get that flawless mirror finish people seem to expect on a guitar, but it will protect the guitar and have a nice satin sheen.

You can get a gloss finish, but you have to build up the finish with many more coats, then sand and polish through progressively finer grits to get there, and do so without sanding THROUGH the finish and having to repair or start all over. But don't think of a satin finish as second-class. It can be stunning as seen in these pics which are literally a couple of random shots I just grabbed off the 'net:

[Peter Wilcox]

The most important part of finishing is having a pristine sanded surface prior to applying the finish. The finish will highlight any pits, dings, dents, scratches, low or high areas, glue or other irregularities that you haven't removed.

[Steve Sawyer]

The most important part of finishing is having a pristine sanded surface prior to applying the finish. The finish will highlight any pits, dings, dents, scratches, low or high areas, glue or other irregularities that you haven't removed.

To Peter's point, you can see a couple of minor flaws in the second of the two pictures I posted above. Look at the line of the arched top just above and between the pickups, and again just to the left of the bridge pickup. The curve there shows a couple of irregularities that were probably completely invisible when bare wood.

[Rodger Knox]

Here's a couple of TruOil finishes.

I was doing my best to avoid glares in the photos, so it's hard to tell how glossy they really are.

[Alan Carruth]

Randolph Rhett wrote:
"...the standard for guitars is a very high quality finish. Don't really know why, but it is."

Somebody has suggested that it's part of the 'Japanese Buyer Syndrome', linked to the concept of 'face'. If your guitar is less attractive than the one your buddy just got, you 'lose face'. On the other hand, if you can find a flaw in the instrument then you gain 'face' over the maker. A well known maker told me a story about this. He sells guitars to a store in Japan. The store owner once told him that a customer had brought one of his guitars back the day after buying it: it had finish scratches on the back and was unacceptable. The store owner took it over to a sunny window, and could find no scratches, at which the customer said: "Of course you can't see them like that; you need to use this magnifying glass!".

You know the finish is good when a fly lands on the guitar, skids off, and breaks his leg falling to the floor....

[Clay Schaeffer]

On page one of the "Fool Proof guide to Being Happy With Your Guitar Finish" it says: don't get caught up in the shiny flawless finish syndrome.
If the guitar is for your significant other and they are not a mythical Japanese Buyer, using finishes that are compatible with each other and applying them as best you can is probably good enough. There are a number of different things you can use and choosing the what is best for you depends on what you want to achieve and the method of application you have available.
Paint under varnish? Solid color or painted design?

[Ben Henderson]

On page one of the "Fool Proof guide to Being Happy With Your Guitar Finish" it says: don't get caught up in the shiny flawless finish syndrome.
If the guitar is for your significant other and they are not a mythical Japanese Buyer, using finishes that are compatible with each other and applying them as best you can is probably good enough. There are a number of different things you can use and choosing the what is best for you depends on what you want to achieve and the method of application you have available.
Paint under varnish? Solid color or painted design?

I wanted to go for a solid colour, then varnished. (Maybe the varnishing isn't needed. However. I shall check out youtube.

[Clay Schaeffer]

Depending on your finish, you may be able to add pigment to the clear coat to make your color coat, which should eliminate most compatibility issues.

[Ben Henderson]

Me again - if I used a coloured stain, of some type what brand would you recommend? After using the stain and letting it dry properly, is there any point in using something like danish oil to protect it, or is the stain enough of a protection?

I think my wife would prefer to see the grain of the wood rather than having paint over it.


Finally - if I stain the body of the guitar, I don't do the same with the neck do I or, is this down to preference?

If i did go for a more natural approach of finishing the guitar - how would I do the neck?

Many thanks

[Barry Daniels]

You owe it to yourself to do some research before tackling the project because there are numerous options. There is also a ton of information in our library. Asking how to begin finishing is like asking how to build a guitar. There is just no way to answer the question other than giving you one or two options out of the myriad of possibilities. For example there are probably at least 20 ways to get color onto a wood surface.

If you want a simple approach that is achievable by a person without spray equipment, the recommendation to use Tru-Oil is a good one. And this can be applied to a stained surface. I would recommend a wipe on stain such as Minwax oil-based stain. And yes, you could stain the neck just like the body. The Minwax will let the wood grain show through.