HVLP Turbines
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Andrew McSpadden
- Posts: 80
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HVLP Turbines
In a year or so I am looking into getting a HVLP/LVLP system. I would like to know anyones opions of the setups and brands they are familiar with and how all that hot air works with different finish types.
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Todd Stock
- Posts: 394
- Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:57 pm
Re: HVLP Turbines
In the interest of full disclosure, I appear in Fuji's corporate video, which features three craft/trades type users doing their thing. I got asked to do it because a) they had a long series of letters and calls from me on stuff I wanted changed on their older guns (I'm a R&D engineer by training and trade, so I am always trying to improve stuff), b) they knew I was a guitar builder that used their guns and had pretty broad experience with other manufacturer's systems, and 3) I would give them eight hours of my time on a busy weekend.
Hard to beat the Fuji Mini-Mite 3, 4, and 5 stuff - the T-75G gravity gun is excellent, with all the same adjustments found on standard conversion guns, and the rest of the kit - turbine, hoses, and the usual viscosity cup, etc. - are top quality. I've sprayed with Turbinaire, Graco, 3M/Accuspray, Apollo, and prefer the Fuji. Customer service is excellent - I can pick up the phone and talk to the company president, or email and get a response from the senior engineer or one of the techs almost immediately. When I've needed parts support (a broken cup courtesy of a student goof that dumped the fully loaded gun onto concrete), I had the replacement free of charge and delivered the next day. The range of needle/air cap sets is comprehensive, so whether spraying thin dyes or polyester pigmented primers, there's an available needle and air cap set for the current T-70/T-75 guns.
A couple things:
- The Mini-Mite and the Q series turbines are identical in terms of the guts - the Mini-Mite does not have the sound baffling, so is noisier.
- The new 5 stage systems will spray anything you can throw at them, and the T-75G/MM-5 system is still under $1K, which is about what a decent 60 gallon compressor, minimal filter system, hoses, and a decent gun will run.
- The 4 stage systems like the MM-4 will handle any clear finish and most pigmented finishes if thinned (lacquer, WB, shellac, polyester, 2-pak polyurethane)
- The hot air that you'll get out of a turbine helps a lot with spraying solvent-based finishes at close to dew point outside or in poorly controlled indoor spaces (e.g., cool, wet day in garage or hot, humid day on deck). For WB finishes, I thin about 5% when the weather is very hot and very dry (not usually a problem in muggy old Maryland), but otherwise, not much of a problem.
- Any turbine will run anyone else's gun. In other words, if you get a fabulous deal on a used 5 stage Graco on Craig's List, you can run your Fuji T-75G (available for about $320 separately) with it. All of the quality turbine units are made by one manufacturer and spray system companies package them in housing/filter systems, so the big discriminator is number of stages, which equates to tip pressure at the gun and ability to atomize thicker, higher viscosity finishes. Tip pressures are about 2 to 2.1 psi per stage, so a consumer single stage or two stage which can spray 1 lb cut shellac or significantly thinned lacquers will run tip pressures of 2 and 4 psi, while 3, 4, and 5 stage run around 6, 8, and 10 psi...more psi at tip means greater ability to fully atomize thicker finishes.
- Air flow is controlled either with a mechanical valve at the gun (simple, hard to break, and cheaper to buy) or with a rheostat on the motor (only on Turbinate and the newest Q 5 Platinum Fuji...not a 'must have' for me, even though I would probably opt for the rheostat if it was less than $50 on a new unit).
- Get the 1mm and 1.3mm needle/aircap sets if spraying WB and lacquers - the 1.3mm will work with Endure-Var, but you'll get a slightly better finished surface without thinning with the 1mm set.
So yesterday, I shot clear lacquer on a ding touchup, cleaned the gun, shot black tinted lacquer on an LP top, set it aside to tack up for scraping, cleaned the gun, swapped needle/aircap shot Enduro-Var on a commission neck (third coat...this sanding between coats is easy, but still sanding...), then cleaned again and finished the evening at 11 PM with two coats of lacquer to seal the LP...I'll sand and shoot the remaining five coats on the LP today, plus more touch-up on the Merrill, and another coat or two of WB on the new neck. I'll probably pick up another T-75G to dedicate to WB stuff at some point, but no need for it other than the usual materials change cleaning is more extensive than what is done for lacquer use only, and the air-cap/needle swap.
Hard to beat the Fuji Mini-Mite 3, 4, and 5 stuff - the T-75G gravity gun is excellent, with all the same adjustments found on standard conversion guns, and the rest of the kit - turbine, hoses, and the usual viscosity cup, etc. - are top quality. I've sprayed with Turbinaire, Graco, 3M/Accuspray, Apollo, and prefer the Fuji. Customer service is excellent - I can pick up the phone and talk to the company president, or email and get a response from the senior engineer or one of the techs almost immediately. When I've needed parts support (a broken cup courtesy of a student goof that dumped the fully loaded gun onto concrete), I had the replacement free of charge and delivered the next day. The range of needle/air cap sets is comprehensive, so whether spraying thin dyes or polyester pigmented primers, there's an available needle and air cap set for the current T-70/T-75 guns.
A couple things:
- The Mini-Mite and the Q series turbines are identical in terms of the guts - the Mini-Mite does not have the sound baffling, so is noisier.
- The new 5 stage systems will spray anything you can throw at them, and the T-75G/MM-5 system is still under $1K, which is about what a decent 60 gallon compressor, minimal filter system, hoses, and a decent gun will run.
- The 4 stage systems like the MM-4 will handle any clear finish and most pigmented finishes if thinned (lacquer, WB, shellac, polyester, 2-pak polyurethane)
- The hot air that you'll get out of a turbine helps a lot with spraying solvent-based finishes at close to dew point outside or in poorly controlled indoor spaces (e.g., cool, wet day in garage or hot, humid day on deck). For WB finishes, I thin about 5% when the weather is very hot and very dry (not usually a problem in muggy old Maryland), but otherwise, not much of a problem.
- Any turbine will run anyone else's gun. In other words, if you get a fabulous deal on a used 5 stage Graco on Craig's List, you can run your Fuji T-75G (available for about $320 separately) with it. All of the quality turbine units are made by one manufacturer and spray system companies package them in housing/filter systems, so the big discriminator is number of stages, which equates to tip pressure at the gun and ability to atomize thicker, higher viscosity finishes. Tip pressures are about 2 to 2.1 psi per stage, so a consumer single stage or two stage which can spray 1 lb cut shellac or significantly thinned lacquers will run tip pressures of 2 and 4 psi, while 3, 4, and 5 stage run around 6, 8, and 10 psi...more psi at tip means greater ability to fully atomize thicker finishes.
- Air flow is controlled either with a mechanical valve at the gun (simple, hard to break, and cheaper to buy) or with a rheostat on the motor (only on Turbinate and the newest Q 5 Platinum Fuji...not a 'must have' for me, even though I would probably opt for the rheostat if it was less than $50 on a new unit).
- Get the 1mm and 1.3mm needle/aircap sets if spraying WB and lacquers - the 1.3mm will work with Endure-Var, but you'll get a slightly better finished surface without thinning with the 1mm set.
So yesterday, I shot clear lacquer on a ding touchup, cleaned the gun, shot black tinted lacquer on an LP top, set it aside to tack up for scraping, cleaned the gun, swapped needle/aircap shot Enduro-Var on a commission neck (third coat...this sanding between coats is easy, but still sanding...), then cleaned again and finished the evening at 11 PM with two coats of lacquer to seal the LP...I'll sand and shoot the remaining five coats on the LP today, plus more touch-up on the Merrill, and another coat or two of WB on the new neck. I'll probably pick up another T-75G to dedicate to WB stuff at some point, but no need for it other than the usual materials change cleaning is more extensive than what is done for lacquer use only, and the air-cap/needle swap.
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Andrew McSpadden
- Posts: 80
- Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:28 pm
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Re: HVLP Turbines
Thanks Todd! Great advise, just what I was looking for. I am also in muggy Maryland. I will take a good look at Fuji when I sell my next batch of guitars.
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David King
- Posts: 2690
- Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:01 pm
- Location: Portland, OR
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Re: HVLP Turbines
Wow Todd,
You almost have me sold on a new system. The warm air definitely makes a big difference when spraying lacquer on cool or cold days. The conversion guns drop the air temp significantly unless you have a drier.
There is one gun at least that comes with a replaceable liner for working with 2K and 3k or polyester finishes that could gel inside the gun thereby ruining it. If you don't have a gun washer this would be a consideration.
You almost have me sold on a new system. The warm air definitely makes a big difference when spraying lacquer on cool or cold days. The conversion guns drop the air temp significantly unless you have a drier.
There is one gun at least that comes with a replaceable liner for working with 2K and 3k or polyester finishes that could gel inside the gun thereby ruining it. If you don't have a gun washer this would be a consideration.
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Todd Stock
- Posts: 394
- Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:57 pm
Re: HVLP Turbines
Def an issue on cat finishes...and these days, it's worth considering the PPS system and similar just to avoid some of the cleaning issues...the #2 adaptor fits the T-75G.
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Joel Nowland
- Posts: 86
- Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 6:01 pm
Re: HVLP Turbines
Andrew
From experience and in my opinion
If your just building a few guitars a year as a hobby and only using one type and size of gun, a turbine system is fine. But if your planning on spraying a lot of guitars or a lot of large pieces of furniture or doing a sunburst finish and you want to use a variety of hvlp gun sizes and types, etc... an hvlp gun/guns with a compressor is much better. Your eventually going to need a compressor anyways.
The best Fuji Spray systems for large volume work are going to run you from about 800.00 to 1200.00. and you can only use Fuji spray guns.
I used a lower priced turbine system (still quite expensive) for several years when I first started building. During this same time I also bought a compressor with 14CFM at 40 PSI which is plenty for an HVLP gun. The first guitar I finished with the HVLP gun and compressed air was sooo much better than the turbine even with a cheep Harbor Freight gun and having to decontaminate the air supply, etc... I have Iwata and other much nicer hvlp guns now.
The turbine is very noisy and blows a lot of air from the unit which can stir up a lot of dust and has a huge hose from turbine to the gun. I ended up running the turbine hose through the wall outside my spray booth because of the dust the turbine kicked up.
Hvlp with compressed air main benefits are much more versatility with being able to use a variety of sizes, types and brands of hvlp or conventional guns and a much faster spray time.
From experience and in my opinion
If your just building a few guitars a year as a hobby and only using one type and size of gun, a turbine system is fine. But if your planning on spraying a lot of guitars or a lot of large pieces of furniture or doing a sunburst finish and you want to use a variety of hvlp gun sizes and types, etc... an hvlp gun/guns with a compressor is much better. Your eventually going to need a compressor anyways.
The best Fuji Spray systems for large volume work are going to run you from about 800.00 to 1200.00. and you can only use Fuji spray guns.
I used a lower priced turbine system (still quite expensive) for several years when I first started building. During this same time I also bought a compressor with 14CFM at 40 PSI which is plenty for an HVLP gun. The first guitar I finished with the HVLP gun and compressed air was sooo much better than the turbine even with a cheep Harbor Freight gun and having to decontaminate the air supply, etc... I have Iwata and other much nicer hvlp guns now.
The turbine is very noisy and blows a lot of air from the unit which can stir up a lot of dust and has a huge hose from turbine to the gun. I ended up running the turbine hose through the wall outside my spray booth because of the dust the turbine kicked up.
Hvlp with compressed air main benefits are much more versatility with being able to use a variety of sizes, types and brands of hvlp or conventional guns and a much faster spray time.
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Todd Stock
- Posts: 394
- Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:57 pm
Re: HVLP Turbines
It's tough to know where to start.
-You can use the Fuji guns with anyone's turbine and the Fuji turbine with anyone's turbine gun. If you have a non-standard hose, you'll need an adaptor, but we're talking low end, crappy systems, rather than current Fuji, Accu-Spray, Turbinate, etc. A turbine gun is a turbine gun is a turbine gun....it uses high volume air at low pressure - anyone's air. I ran my Fuji guns for years with a Turbinate turbine, but have sprayed with AccuSpray and Graco turbines and Fuji or other brand guns.
- The current generations of turbine guns are a far cry from the crappy bleeders of 15 years ago. I spray a lot, and have both systems (conversion guns including good Iwata and SATA), and the gravity Fujis are as versatile and lay down finish as well as the Iwata and SATA stuff.
- The Q-series Fuji turbines are very quiet. Cheap turbines are really loud. Buy a good turbine, and if really noise sensitive (I wear hearing protection with any power equipment running) wear hearing protection along with your mask and eye protection. With a 30 foot hose, it's not much trouble to locate the turbine where the sound - pretty much on par with a Dyson vac - is not a problem. Add a 25' section of hose if that does not do the trick.
- The new Fuji guns are as versatile as the higher end guns from SATA or Iwata - I have a large compressor, inline dryer, etc. and still spray with the turbine due to the better handling of high RH, low temps, etc. If you can spray in a humidity and temp controlled booth, there's no difference between what conversion and turbine will do. Try shooting in a garage or outside and turbine advantages for handling low temps and high RH become very apparent.
- I have no clue as to why a conversion gun is faster than a turbine gun. An HVLP is an HVLP...assuming your compressed handles a full sized gun, same fan width, material mix, etc.
- A MiniMite-3 with T-75G runs $610...that's a complete system...full sized, big-boy gun, turbine, hoses, cup, etc. Any clear finish (lacquer, shellac, waterbased) will spray with a three stage. Just a compressed large enough to drive a full-sized conversion gun will run $600 or more, plus another couple hundred for filters, dryers, hoses, regulators, then $200 - $600 or each gun if you want to stay away from bargain brands.
- I am not sure how turbines kick up more air than conversion guns. Unless the turbine is one of those plastic el-cheapos, the bypass turbine is cooled with the same air that is headed up the hose to the gun. Tip pressures are going to be 6 to 10 psi max for both turbine and conversion HVLP because that's what you need to meet transfer efficiency standards.
-You can use the Fuji guns with anyone's turbine and the Fuji turbine with anyone's turbine gun. If you have a non-standard hose, you'll need an adaptor, but we're talking low end, crappy systems, rather than current Fuji, Accu-Spray, Turbinate, etc. A turbine gun is a turbine gun is a turbine gun....it uses high volume air at low pressure - anyone's air. I ran my Fuji guns for years with a Turbinate turbine, but have sprayed with AccuSpray and Graco turbines and Fuji or other brand guns.
- The current generations of turbine guns are a far cry from the crappy bleeders of 15 years ago. I spray a lot, and have both systems (conversion guns including good Iwata and SATA), and the gravity Fujis are as versatile and lay down finish as well as the Iwata and SATA stuff.
- The Q-series Fuji turbines are very quiet. Cheap turbines are really loud. Buy a good turbine, and if really noise sensitive (I wear hearing protection with any power equipment running) wear hearing protection along with your mask and eye protection. With a 30 foot hose, it's not much trouble to locate the turbine where the sound - pretty much on par with a Dyson vac - is not a problem. Add a 25' section of hose if that does not do the trick.
- The new Fuji guns are as versatile as the higher end guns from SATA or Iwata - I have a large compressor, inline dryer, etc. and still spray with the turbine due to the better handling of high RH, low temps, etc. If you can spray in a humidity and temp controlled booth, there's no difference between what conversion and turbine will do. Try shooting in a garage or outside and turbine advantages for handling low temps and high RH become very apparent.
- I have no clue as to why a conversion gun is faster than a turbine gun. An HVLP is an HVLP...assuming your compressed handles a full sized gun, same fan width, material mix, etc.
- A MiniMite-3 with T-75G runs $610...that's a complete system...full sized, big-boy gun, turbine, hoses, cup, etc. Any clear finish (lacquer, shellac, waterbased) will spray with a three stage. Just a compressed large enough to drive a full-sized conversion gun will run $600 or more, plus another couple hundred for filters, dryers, hoses, regulators, then $200 - $600 or each gun if you want to stay away from bargain brands.
- I am not sure how turbines kick up more air than conversion guns. Unless the turbine is one of those plastic el-cheapos, the bypass turbine is cooled with the same air that is headed up the hose to the gun. Tip pressures are going to be 6 to 10 psi max for both turbine and conversion HVLP because that's what you need to meet transfer efficiency standards.
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Joel Nowland
- Posts: 86
- Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 6:01 pm
Re: HVLP Turbines
It's wonderful to have varying opinions on any given subject. If only those who agree submit posts, you wouldn't have what you need to make an informed decision.
I have finished nearly 200 guitars and more than 1000 pieces of furniture and have experience with different spray systems including airless sprayers. IMO you are better off with the versatility of a compressed air system using a variety of types, sizes and brands of hvlp guns.
Using an Airless sprayer, a friend of mine, a very experienced finisher, laid down a beautiful acrylic lacquer finish on a big octagon dinning table I built. Airless sprayers are mainly used for large volume spraying but he had the experience to chose the right setup for lacquer and did a great job.
With experience and knowledge you can do a great finish with most systems, even a paint brush. The question is which one is really the best.
I have finished nearly 200 guitars and more than 1000 pieces of furniture and have experience with different spray systems including airless sprayers. IMO you are better off with the versatility of a compressed air system using a variety of types, sizes and brands of hvlp guns.
Using an Airless sprayer, a friend of mine, a very experienced finisher, laid down a beautiful acrylic lacquer finish on a big octagon dinning table I built. Airless sprayers are mainly used for large volume spraying but he had the experience to chose the right setup for lacquer and did a great job.
With experience and knowledge you can do a great finish with most systems, even a paint brush. The question is which one is really the best.
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Todd Stock
- Posts: 394
- Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:57 pm
Re: HVLP Turbines
6-2, 195, Size L undershorts loose at waist and way too snug in the crotch.
Did you want to address the points you raised and I corrected on gun/turbine compatibility, the air business (which I am still a bit fuzzy on...did your turbine system have a leak?), and error on system costs?
Did you want to address the points you raised and I corrected on gun/turbine compatibility, the air business (which I am still a bit fuzzy on...did your turbine system have a leak?), and error on system costs?