Wipe on finishes survey

[Randolph Rhett]

I HATE to spray. Hate the noise of the compressor, hate the learning curve, hate the unpredictability.

I've been FP Royal Lac, and love it. FP is a lot of work, though. For soundboard, don't think I'll use anything else, but I am constantly trying to find better ways to skin this cat.

I am wondering what options exist for wipe on finishes other luthiers use for a high gloss "wet" finish? I have never used TruOil, and now that the owner of TruOil decided he did not want to bother having his VOC tested we can't buy it in California, probably not Europe as well. I am pretty certain that Europe also requires VOC testing. So, what else is out there that people like?

[Craig Bumgarner]

I've tried most everything short of UV cured urethanes and catalyzed polyester. Royal Lac is what I use consistently. You don't have to apply it like FP though. I do when I want the highest gloss, but if my customer wants a low gloss, I wipe it on with a pad made of tee shirt cotton, no oil.

I'm not aware of any wipe on finish that will give you a high gloss wet look finish without polishing. If there is, I want to know about it. If you are a good with a varnish brush, you can apply marine spar varnish to a brilliant gloss, but it is hard keeping the dust out of the final finish. It can be done, we do it in the boatyard I work in. You can brush Royal Lac to a pretty high gloss too, but would not call it a wet look and dust is still a problem. There are some two part clear urethane that will brush to very high gloss as well if you have good technique (look at the Awlgrip products).

The solution to all that is polishing with buffing wheels, wet or dry. Given a good finishing material suitable for polishing once set up, the finish can be buffed to a brilliant gloss. Marine varnish (Z-Spar's Captain's Varnish is very good), Royal Lac, lacquers and urethanes can all be brushed, or wiped on assuming they are formulated for this process, then wet sanded and buffed to very high mirror gloss. Still a lot of work as each coat will have brush strokes to be sanded out before the next coat and final polishing.

I think no matter how you slice it, a high gloss, wet look finish is a lot of work. High gloss finishes require good prep, perfect grain filling before finish application. Spraying can make some parts of this easier if you can get your head wrapped around it, but in the end, it is still a lot of work.

Brushed water base lacquer has lot going for it and can be polished very high. I've done a few that way. Pretty simple, low toxicity, low VOC, tough, high gloss when polished. In the end, hovever, I just didn't like the look or the feel of these products. Maybe eventually.

My go-to finish is Royal Lac because it behaves pretty much like traditional shellac and after 30 days, it is a very hard, durable finish with great hand feel and look. I epoxy fill the back, side and neck, use Seal Lac on the top until the spruce grain is pretty well filled. Then I spray (to get good uniformity) tinted shellac to get the color I want, then finish off with Royal Lac wiped on or by FP depending on the degree of gloss desired. If a very high gloss is desired, after a 3-4 weeks, Royal Lac buffs to a mirror finish with a fixed buffing wheel and dry Menzerna compound. I've been known to buff it at 2 weeks and it worked okay. If I want lower gloss, I wipe it on with a firm hand, ~ 3-4 sessions of 3 coats one right after another and minimum of 4 hours between sessions, 12-16 hours is better, especially if you dry sand with 1000 grit between sessions like I do. The wiped on finish looks good as is, but can be also be buffed once the finish sets up, just takes some wet sanding first and a bit more buffing. Royal Lac seems to hold up to hot, sweaty guitarists better than traditional shellac. Not to mention spilled bourbon.

Now if you willing to forego the high gloss thing, you have lots of options in wipe on finishes. Tru-Oil if you can get your hands on it, Wipe on Poly, OSMO, Tung Oil, Danish Oil, KTM-SV, etc. If you skip the grain filling and tinting, you can have a very simple, easy, quick, forgiving finish with these products. Just not super high gloss.

[Waddy Thomson]

There are others, but I know Liberon makes a wiping oil. I have tried it, but didn't like the slower dry times. You can apply the Royal Lac just like a wiping oil, rather than French polishing with it. It works fine that way. Just wipe on, let dry for an hour, repeat. Up to about 6 coats a day. Then rub back with 400 - 600 grit or that non woven steel wool substitute that I can never think of the name of. Then build more, until you get enough coats to satisfy yourself, then work it down after a few weeks of drying, wet sanding through the MicroMesh grits or other wet-dry papers, and finish out, with Meguire's Swirl Remover then Show Car Glaze.

Truth is, you don't really have to wait a few weeks. Wet sanding after a few days to 1 week is not an issue at all, and rubbing out isn't either. I did this guitar, and rubbed out after 1 week with no problem. Admittedly, the finish is still a little soft at that point, but it works just fine.

[Randolph Rhett]

I suppose that I knew high gloss either came from endless application of microscopic layers followed by hours of hand rubbing with a whisper of alcohol or endless sanding up a dozen grits followed by having your guitar ripped from your hands by a buffing wheel or burning steaks into your finish.

Still, if I can avoid the noise, fumes, clean up, etc. associated with spraying its a step forward. I like wiping on over brushing because of the lower incidence of ridges needing to be sanded out.

I've heard people rave reacently about Enduro-var. Is that formulated to wipe on?

Sorry if these questions seem profoundly ignorant. I am. Hoping to remedy that by asking questions.

[Randolph Rhett]

Waddy, that looks gorgeous. Royal Lac sure has a lot going for it.

[Craig Bumgarner]

Be careful with moisture and Royal Lac until it is fully set. It will polish up sooner, but full moisture resistance takes 30 days. I delivered a guitar with Royal Lac for a customer in a hurry and he took it a couple days after the finish was applied. On day 16 after application, he played an outdoor gig and his gig bag gotten damp from light rain. He put the guitar in it anyway (WHAT!!!!!) and noted the next day the finish on the back had blushed. This was easy enough to fix, just sanded it out some, not all the way, and reapplied Royal Lac, but it did drive home the 30 day thing.

Course traditional shellac will do this too and it takes more like a year or two before it is fully set up enough to resist even moderate moisture. Traditional shellac is just not tough enough for the people who play my guitars. Perspiration strips it off the neck and the body where the chest and forearm rest.

You can tell when Royal Lac has cross linked well, you get a dust when dry sanding. Until it set up, it tends to ball up and clog the sand paper. Waddy, I'm glad to hear you are wet sanding without difficulty, I suppose the blushing is more likely with an overnight exposure to a wet gig bag than a short term exposure.

[Waddy Thomson]

I would agree with that last statement, Craig. When I do wet sand, I don't keep it wet long, and always dry it off immediately. I do back, side, side, top, etc, one surface at a time. And I then hang the guitar in my 40% humidity shop. A wet case/gig bag, will ruin most any guitar if left in it for long.

[Dan Smith]

I've used Truoil, but gave up applying coats before it was thick enough to wet sand and polish.
The Truoil really brought out the wood color and figure.

I tried wipe-on Minwax Poly. It looked really nice, but it was a dust magnet while curing.
I ended up sanding it all off and spraying nitro.

[Craig Bumgarner]

Waddy, How long do you wait before wet sanding? Do you wet sand between application sessions?

[Waddy Thomson]

No, I treat it a lot like Tru-Oil. I only sand after overnight drying. I may, however, put on 5 or 6 coats a day. I have in a few cases when I waited a couple of hours, used the non-woven gray pads, equivalent to about 4-O steel wool, but works fine to take out little specs and bumps and provides a flat surface for the next application. I do put it on very thin, though. Not a real wet pad. This keeps it from beading at the neck or other angular intersects.

[Bobby Masten]

I recently finished a small table top for an "Adult Jenga" set. Basically 72 - 2x4's cut to 10 1/2" long. The table was only about 8" high as the set gets very tall quickly! My wife painted the top of the table black with 3 coats of a latex household wall paint leaving brush lines. Since this item will be stored in the garage and used outdoors I was hoping to find a moisture barrier coating I could wipe on easily that was self leveling. After stopping in the local woodcrafters they convinced me to use the following:

https://generalfinishes.com/retail-prod ... kXkKsKFN9A

Now I'm not a finish guru by any means. Took me about a month to figure out what worked best for me on this product. (Sanded back to the latex several times as I wasn't getting what I wanted for fill and gloss.) I tried old t-shirt material, coffee filters and eventually found that a square of folded blue shop towels (fold once, then fold again to a size about like a post it note) gave me the best application. I would prior to each session wipe the table down with odorless mineral spirits (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Klean-Strip- ... /100677235) then dry it using a blue shop towel and immediately wipe on a coat of the Arm-R-Seal.

Applying a wet coat (thin but not too thin) I would not wipe off the excess as on the 2' diameter table it would begin to leave streaks by the time I got from one side to the other. After a couple applications I found just how much overlap and how "wet" each coating should be. Let it dry 12 hours and repeat. Lightly wet sand every 2-3 coats using 600 grit and the mineral spirits. I also found lightly dampening the blue shop towel with the mineral spirits prior to beginning gave me a thinner coat that spread easier with less blushing or streaking. I have no idea how many coats I ended up with as I sanded back to the black with 220 several times using the different material until I settled on the blue shop towels.

When wet sanding I typically used a block but sometimes I had very heavy coats and used the same 600 grit sandpaper wet with mineral spirits and an orbital sander. I was able to build enough thickness to eliminate the brush marks using this method. In hindsight I wish I had used some epoxy and "pore filled" the brush marks as it would have been much faster.

If you end up with blushing or streaks when applying it, don't try to go back and touch it up. The next wet sand and thin Arm-R-Seal application will gloss it right back up. I got a good thick water resistant coating when finished that even without buffing had a nice gloss to it. I'm considering trying it on my next guitar as I don't have any spray equipment or space to do that in.

Hope this helps.

Bobby

[Todd Stock]

There's a hump to get over, but think about turbine HVLP before you give up on spray...tough to get a traditional gloss finish in anything close to the hours you'll see with spray versus brush or wipe-on. Fuji systems and guns avoid a lot of the issues you get with compressor guns and compressors, and extend the conditions under which spraying can be done. That said, TruOil will build to a pretty decent gloss and is reasonably durable if you have the patience to apply the number of coats you'll need with just about any wiping varnish. Also look at the General brushing varnishes (they can also be sprayed) - I hate (actually, hate with the power of a thousand suns) waterbased finishes, and even I am impressed with Endur-Var...just wish it was not $100/gallon.