General Finishes Waterbase Topcoat - SM is pushing this - anyone tried it?

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Re: General Finishes Waterbase Topcoat - SM is pushing this - anyone tried it?

Postby Chuck Tweedy » Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:05 pm

Hey yea, I tried the satin. It is real nice - real nice soft look. I'd really like to try a quick no-buff guitar finish with it some day...
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Re: General Finishes Waterbase Topcoat - SM is pushing this - anyone tried it?

Postby Dan Smith » Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:03 pm

Peter Wilcox wrote:Excuse my confusion. It seems the original post was about this, https://generalfinishes.com/retail-prod ... lYYdr8Xt8E , the stuff SM sells, and then the topic switched to Endurovar, https://generalfinishes.com/retail-prod ... lYW_b8Xt8E . Does anybody know if they interchangeable in application and appearance for guitar finishing (except for the ambering?)

I'm lost too.
Exactly what product is this discussion about?
Thanks,
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Re: General Finishes Waterbase Topcoat - SM is pushing this - anyone tried it?

Postby Chuck Tweedy » Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:11 pm

it is exactly about Endurovar :-)
i originally asked about General's "High Performance" coating, but was quickly re-directed by the wily and mischievous Mr. King (EDIT: Mr. Lewis - Mr. King just piled on) to the subject of Endurovar.
we've spent 10 pages on EV ... might want to just roll with it
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Re: General Finishes Waterbase Topcoat - SM is pushing this - anyone tried it?

Postby Peter Wilcox » Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:46 pm

Dan, I'm building a resonator that I'm going to finish with the "High Performance Topcoat". It seems to have a few differences from the Endurovar besides the lack of amber tint.

Endurovar:
DURABILITY
Durability (Highest, High, Medium, Low): Medium
Hardness (Koeing): 123
Wear (Taber): 95.6 mg loss
Water (5 max): 3
Chemical (105 max): 84

High Performance:
DURABILITY
Durability (Highest, High, Medium, Low): High
Hardness (Koeing): 59
Wear (Taber): 34.4 mg loss
Water (5 max): 4
Chemical (105 max): 93

Seems it's more durable than Endurovar, but not as hard, so may be easier to sand. :)
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Re: General Finishes Waterbase Topcoat - SM is pushing this - anyone tried it?

Postby Steve Sawyer » Sun Dec 25, 2016 12:18 am

Peter - interested in your experience. Just bought a can of High Performance intending to do a test finishing schedule. Will share results here when completed, but it might be a couple of weeks.
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Re: General Finishes Waterbase Topcoat - SM is pushing this - anyone tried it?

Postby Dan Smith » Sun Dec 25, 2016 12:08 pm

Thanks fellows!
I'm trying to get away from spraying nitro.
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Re: General Finishes Waterbase Topcoat - SM is pushing this - anyone tried it?

Postby Todd Stock » Mon Dec 26, 2016 8:06 am

Enduro-Var is not hard to sand or buff; not as soft as something like lacquer-based sanding sealer, but certainly not as tough as some polyesters. Fresh, quality abrasives, and change the paper when dry sanding...does not load if the finish has a few hours to cure.
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Re: General Finishes Waterbase Topcoat - SM is pushing this - anyone tried it?

Postby David King » Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:20 pm

Endurovar was designed as a floor finish. It holds up Ok but not as well as an old school phenolic varnish or catalyzed oil finish.
It it resistant to alcohol and even acetone once it has cross-linked (after a week or so). I'd be curious to know if the High Performance is also resistant.
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Re: General Finishes Waterbase Topcoat - SM is pushing this - anyone tried it?

Postby Todd Stock » Sun Jan 01, 2017 8:28 am

Just finished a non-guitar project with High Performance - I liked it. Sanded and buffed three semi-gloss coats over a single coat of West 105/206 on curly maple. Gunned well and attachment to epoxy was quite good...sanded 48 hours after last coat and aggressively buffed to a semi-gloss finish. After 48 hours, the coupon was moderately resistant to Dalwhinnie 15 (not an intentional test) and lacquer thinner. Will see what happens next Tuesday with the remaining coupon. Def water white...absolutely no color, and (better yet) no blue cast with wet coats from a 1.0mm needle/cap set and the Fuji T-75G/4 stage turbine spraying filtered//unthinned.
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Re: General Finishes Waterbase Topcoat - SM is pushing this - anyone tried it?

Postby David King » Sun Jan 01, 2017 2:46 pm

Thanks Todd!
Ideally the moderators would calve the High Performance off into it's own discussion.
The other question would be how well it's able to burn in between quickly spaced coats and whether sanding through leaves witness lines.

Actually the OP title indicates that we where supposed to be talking about HP all along.
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Re: General Finishes Waterbase Topcoat - SM is pushing this - anyone tried it?

Postby Dan Smith » Sun Jan 01, 2017 9:45 pm

Thanks Todd!
I may give it a try.
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Re: General Finishes Waterbase Topcoat - SM is pushing this - anyone tried it?

Postby Todd Stock » Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:20 am

No sanding between #1 and #2...there's probably a sweet spot for recoat without sanding, and it's likely longer than I waited (20 mins). No attachment or witness line issues, but more texture than I expected to see from the 1.0 mm needle/air cap set. May have been the lack of thinning - I wanted to see how it handles from the can. Had this been a gloss finish, I'd have needed another 2-3 coats to level sand for a dead flat surface, but at semi-gloss, three was plenty. Suspect this is similar to lacquer - just get the finish thickness needed and level sand for buffing.

For maple, the amber from the Enduro-Var might have been nice, but not having the bluing issue to deal with was nice in a WB.
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Re: General Finishes Waterbase Topcoat - SM is pushing this - anyone tried it?

Postby Jason Rodgers » Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:43 pm

I got a wee can of the HP that I'll be trying soon on a solidbody. Here's a question about seal coating. I use fish glue for all joints, and I've had the joint wake up when rubbing dye on raw wood thinned with water (sanded back immediately and switched to thinning with alcohol). If I brush on the HP, is that center seam going to swell and kill my beautiful results? Should I give it a spray of Zinsser's?
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Re: General Finishes Waterbase Topcoat - SM is pushing this - anyone tried it?

Postby Brian Evans » Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:01 am

According to the manufacturer, the recoat interval for HP is two hours with no sanding, and the recoat locks into what's already down. Sanding is required if the recoat interval is over 24 hours. That's different from the Stew-Mac schedule, which says three base coats at 90 minutes, colour coats the next day with no sanding, then top coats the next day after a 1000 grit sand. The Endurovar is designed as a brushable, the HP is designed as a wipe-on with a pad (typical for floors) or spray with a 1.3-ish nozzle without thinning. The two products look totally different in the can, so I don't think they are directly related to each other. Neither want to be applied over shellac, they have a special sanding sealer, if you use shellac you are supposed to sand it back to exposed wood. I suspect the wax in shellac is the thing they worry about, and dewaxed shellac would probably be OK. I also suspect the manufacturers instructions are as much to protect them from liability as anything else and that you can do all sorts of things with it and have good results. I've been researching this stuff for months and months, and I've decided that the only way to actually figure it out is start spraying...
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Re: General Finishes Waterbase Topcoat - SM is pushing this - anyone tried it?

Postby Todd Stock » Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:20 am

There will be settling over WB glue joints with both Enduro-Var and HP IME - the least amount on hot hide, more on Titebond and fish. Gone by the third coat IME with both. John Greven is using epoxy under EV, and it works under HP - def saves a few coats versus working from raw wood.
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Re: General Finishes Waterbase Topcoat - SM is pushing this - anyone tried it?

Postby Brian Evans » Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:47 am

Two questions - can I spray water-based finish at 55 degrees, or should I warm things up to 75 degrees? How the heck do you spray a clear finish when you can't see it as it goes on? I spray clear, and I can't tell if anything went on the wood. I am standing directly under two six foot, 100 watt flourescent bulbs in a well lit shop. Should I get some halogen side lights?

Thanks for answering the newbie's questions!

Brian
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Re: General Finishes Waterbase Topcoat - SM is pushing this - anyone tried it?

Postby Peter Wilcox » Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:40 pm

If you stand and spray so the image of a shop light is reflected in the work, you should be able to see the coat going on.
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Re: General Finishes Waterbase Topcoat - SM is pushing this - anyone tried it?

Postby Chuck Tweedy » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:02 am

Jason - Yes, the water-based finish will swell the fish glue!!
Watch out!!
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Re: General Finishes Waterbase Topcoat - SM is pushing this - anyone tried it?

Postby Todd Stock » Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:08 pm

One of my students found us a pretty decent deal on Enduro-Var Gloss gallons in time to handle a couple of necks and a body or two. Jet.Com (Walmart's rebranded web sales engine) has a 15% off deal for first three purchases, but capped at $30 total savings...so two gallons at about $150 total, versus the $185-$205 I pay from other sources. Runs thru Apr 1. Sort of like having a personal shopper ;)
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Re: General Finishes Waterbase Topcoat - SM is pushing this - anyone tried it?

Postby Joel Nowland » Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:51 pm

Just yesterday I watched a video featuring a famous jazz guitar builder in which he stated that all the water based finishes he has tried show glue lines.

I am going to stick with Mohawk lacquer which I started using only about three years ago and love it and wish I had used it twenty years ago.
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