Renting / Building / Tooling the Small Workshop

Andrij Obarymskyj - 12:39am Oct 17, 1998
Guitarerro

To share or Not to share, whether the shop is mine or yours... Shakespeare never was a good cup of tea for me.

I recently discovered a hidden talent for making Spanish/Classical guitars only to find out my grandfather used to make them too. So now I've started, I can't stop myself. My Violinmaker friend helped me bring my talent to reality in return for doing some computer stuff for him (I work days in Forestry Research and nights as an Information Technology consultant, both get in the way of guitar making, and both don't pay very well).

I have an opportunity to share (PAY) for the use of my friend's Violin workshop - fully equipped three floors of an old converted schoolhouse.

The basement is the roughing area where all the power equipment is, the main foor is the carving/dressing/assembly area open concept (old classroom) and the top floor is divided into wood storage and finishing areas. Do you need a bib yet? Like this place is way past cool. There are also going to be one or two student apprentice Violinmakers that will be paying him to teach.

So now, it's business time and rightly so, I should pay him a nominal amount to defray the cost of using the facilities. The question is... how much is too much? Right now, the suggested rent (for lack of a better term) is $500.00/month plus consumables. The mortgage on my house is about the same (no bias intended) so my lower jaw drops to the hardwood floor thinkin where the !@#$%^&(*) am I going to get another mortgage load?

When I was cruising down the NET, I slammed on the brakes to stop at this site. I'm impressed with the workmanship not just in your abilities as makers of fine stringed instruments but as forum participants too. So I ask you for your opinion.

If you had the $500.00 per month to make the instruments you make, would the turn-key schoolhouse be a "good thing", would you invest it in mutual funds(just kidding), or buy your own workshop perhaps a two-story garage and do your own making??

I would really like your feedback.

Thanks so much.

Andrico

Hi Andrico! I've been making/repairing musical instruments for over 30 odd years(some years were really odd!), so here's my gentle advice: Do not go gently into that converted schoolhouse!(My apologies to Dylan Thomas). Instead, use that money for a space of your own. Autonomy is priceless! Why? Because you control your destiny, at least in this area. I presently work in a 22x22 converted garage. In the past I have practiced in several rented store buildings as well as in two basement workshops. I have also practiced in workshop space located within a retail music store for which I paid the store owner 15% of my gross billings. This situation worked out very well for both of us. Good Luck to You!

RE: The Workshop

Thought I'd save on disk space and reply to you in one box.

Deb: Thanks for the welcome!

Henry: It's actually $500cdn ($73US - just kidding), coaching/insurance is extra. Insurance...that's a good one - never entered my mind, thanks for mentioning it.

Fred: Thanks for those pointers. I need to build a garage anyway and I'm sure I could do it for less than $500/month.

Andrico

The insurance question come next after shop safety . The friend who was building a hurdy-gurdy with me is a pianist ( playing the piano is his " day job" ) a small injury to a hand could have meant loosing income . We did take a few more precautions than I would have if I had been working alone . Just to make things worse , we used a table saw instead of a bandsaw . Maybe it is because I am older now , but shop safety is one of the few reasons why I would be reluctant to share shop space .

Andrico

I just spent almost $10,000 )US, more CAN) to have a garage addition built onto my house. The main purpose was to have a space to put a workshop. So I'd agree with Fred. If you have the equipment to start your own workshop why not put your money where you will see some return. If you have to borrow the tools well then you may have no choice at this time if you want to start building right away. But you could start collecting some tools and work is a small part of your present dwelling. Visit Kathy's site, she is a prime example that you don't need a lot of space to build instruments. Even though most of would like a shop that is just a little bit bigger.

Hi Andrico, IMHO (I finally got to use it!) I would put the money into making your own space to build in. A few months ago, I met a luthier from Chatham ON. (I think...) at the MIAC show in Toronto, he had an inpressive display of absolutely beautiful custom instruments, which he made in his attic, converted into a wood shop! I saw pictures, there's only enough room to turn front to back from one machine to another, and only 20 feet long! That was proof to me, and destroyed all my excuses for not building MORE... that one doesn't need an elaborate workshop to turn out wonderful instruments, just some well organised space and of course a dust collection unit!

Rolfe Gerhardt builds his Phoenix mandolins in a 10'x20' shop w/ a 10'x15' extra. You wouldn't believe how crowded it is in there. It is a good thing that he is building only mandolins, b/c there is not much room to swing a guitar around in there. Still, he is very organized, with a place for everything and everything in its place. He gets all of the job done in there, and very well, IMHO.

I have been building a 24'x24' shop in my back yard. I have spent only slightly more than what Glenn has spent. Part of that is b/c I have a sloping sight, so the footing/foundation alone cost $4700.00. Here are a coupla more things that you might consider:

(i) Consider framing an interior wall so that you have separate rooms for machine work and for dust-free detail and hand work like gluing, finishing, etc. If you also store your wood in the detail room, it is cheaper and easier to control temperature, humidity, etc., in that room only.

(ii) Consider building a detached structure for tax purposes. At least in my locality, an addition (i.e., attached) to the house is taxed at a 50% higher rate than an outbuilding which is 10' or more from the house.

(iii) Consider a wood floor. It is much easier on the feet and legs and joints, and machines are quieter on it. If you need to put down a garage-type slab for resale purposes, you can put a sleeper floor down over the slab. That could be treated 2x4s over a vapor barrier, w/ 3/4" t&g plywood over the sleepers.

Andrico, I think making a workshop can produce an immence amount of stress. Whatever you do, always keep in mind that your workshop will be a place where you will spend many hours loving your work and it has to be relatively comfortable and safe.

I also believe that it is better to save a bit more money and make a bigger workshop first time rather than making it small and then spending a lot more to convert it into a larger one.

Glenn, Dave, Henry, Panos:

Wow, this is getting exiting. You folks amaze me at how small a work area you are using by comparison to the Schoolhouse my violinmaker friend is offering to rent to me (30'w X 45'L X 25'h). The place has wonderful acoustics and is very spacious, but still I am unable to justify the $500/month.

I think Panos hit the nail (none used in my instruments) on the head about making for the joy of it. I would find it more stressful however if I had to pay big bucks for the rental of a workshop.

All of you have been pointing me in the direction of doing things for myself and in so doing, I attain goals of achievement and autonomy. Creations of beauty using ones bare hands it seems, extends to the place in which you make those creations. I can see more now that having your own cozey place to create contributes much towards the success of the creation.

I wonder if women makers of fine musical instruments share the same sentiments. I wonder if they utter the same "Tim the Toolman" salute (grunt grunt) as some of us guys do? But I guess that's for another discussion...

Thanks again everyone for your input.

Andrico

I wonder if women makers of fine musical instruments share the same sentiments
I rented a shop to build my first two hammered dulcimers. It was cheap, very inconvenient (a long drive) but I knew nothing so it was a good way for me to start out, or so I thought. The guy was a house carpenter (and not a very good one), and I'm lucky I came out of the experience with all my digits still attached. I wouldn't've done it for $500/mo tho.

Hi Panos , I like the " relatively safe " argument , I could add " blood stained but relatively safe " <g>. In fact you only need a lot of space if you have a lot of big expensive power tools . I like to look at pictures of old , pre-power tools , shop turned into museum . Stradivarius, Hotteterre, Torres and their friends did not have power planers etc . But if you intend to make enough Telecasters each week to get your kids trough medical college ,that is another story <g>.

Hey Deb, you didn't tell us if you utter Tim Toolman's (grunt, grunt) salute. My shop's about 20X20 and about 1/4 is piles of wood. I have it hanging from the floor joists as well. I managed to build a 13' boat in it. Next stop, mandolin. If I had to fork over $500 per mo., I'd be so worried I couldn't function. Gee, think of all the wood you could buy. I think I'd go for my own shop. At least for $500 per month you have something to show for it. Biggest problem I have with the basement shop is trying to keep the sawdust downstairs. How do you address that problem, Henry?

well... no real good solution yet, I would already be quite happy if I could keep the dust out of my nose ( and lungs) . I have tried an air filter with a fan ( the one from Lee Valley ) , it was good when I finished drywalling the house but in the shop it is so noisy that I often wait until to late to start it. The most efficient trick so far is a door mat in front of the stairs and a central vacuum system to clean up the rest of the house .<g> I am amazed when I see a workshop like Katy's of Norm Abram's . I am still working at a plausible excuse to explain why mine's is such a mess .Best explanation so far is that I that I keep to much junk " just in case ..."

My shop is 10 ft x 20 ft. I'm in the process of winterizing it. I'm getting a small production hand from someone at no cost. All I have to do is to put it together. It does not have dial control like most hand mills, it has adjustable sliding wheels like a drill press only the it also works horizontally.

Anyway, I have the 3 phase converter now which will give me up to 5 hp of three phase power.

I need to start looking for a dust collection setup. Will a shop vac work to some extent?

Will a shop vac work to some extent?
Not well. They all exhaust fine dust.

Also, beware that a 3-phase converter will cost you substantially to run. Nothing is free and the conversion consumes a lot of energy.

DUST What Dust?...

My father built a really cool dust collector. Here's the recipe for it...

TUBING> Lengths of standard furnace galvanized duct tube as the main artery. Run this along the wall where your equipment sits.

For each machine he custom made funnels to collect incoming dust fresh off the machine(s). He made connectors to the main artery using flexible 6" hose (it's not cheap to buy it's used for fume collecting but he got his from a local surplus/junque dealer). Wooden dams are located at the artery connection to control air flow for each machine.

COLLECTOR> You know that old beer refridgerator in the basement that's a pain in the butt to get rid of? GUT IT!! Take the contents out leaving in tact the fridge's door gaskets and remove the old handle too. Attach a couple of cam-lock latches to replace the old door handle/latch - they will provide a tight seal around the openning.

Cut a hole in the top of the fridge to permit connection of the one end of the artery as the intake. Make the top tube long enough to go through the roof of the fridge so that a flange can be attached to connect the collection bag. Cut a large hole out of the bottom of the fridge and build a plywood box big enough to contain the bottom of the fridge so that air flow continues out the bottom and into the box. My father simply cut out the area where the compressor was and fit the box so it sits attached to the back of the fridge resting on the floor.

EXHAUST> Guess what's inside the box!! An 18" dia squirrel cage fan driven by a ½-horse motor with pulley and belt. The screen opening of the box has a dense furnace filter covering it from within the box so if there is any small particle dust, it will get filtered. The power you use will depend on how much air volume you need to move.

That's it! When the bag gets full, open the fridge door and take the bag off the flange. Use an extra bag to take over. The bags are made as big as the shape will fit in the fridge leaving allowance for the bag to expand upto the inside walls of the fridge.

The volume of airflow this thing moves permits vacuuming up any chip spillage around the machine(s) you work on.

If we're going to get into one-upmanship, I challenge anyone to beat me at "my shop is smaller than your shop". Currently my work area is about eight feet square including the bits occupied by the furnace and the water heater. I can stand between the floor joists but not directly under them. I built the whole thing from the floor up myself. When you work this small you start thinking how to organize volume efficiently. It may be cramped and dirty, but would I trade the work of my own hands for a big, store-bought shop? Damn right I would. Any offers?

I'm for expansionism. I started out with a small table for a shop. Now I'm expanded to a 10x20ft garage. Sometimes I wished I could rent part of that abandoned powder factory down the street!

well I come in there close to 8'x10'. when the oldest kid moved out I turned his room into a shop (hope dont mind the dust when he wants to visit). on the dust topic my wife was complaining yesterday she wanted to know when I was going to get the dust off the walls. my awnser was july, she wanted that in writing so you guessed it with my finger on the wall I wrote J U L Y in the dust.the best tool in my shop is a rotating tool table (sears) it holds a belt sander, band saw, and drill press. allso it is the work bench.

Andrij, I think you actually have to have a shop before you can enter the contest, but you'll have to check with the people in charge around here. Is there a prize and who is going to verify the results? (To answer your question, I make guitars, banjos, and mandothingies. Harpsichords are obviously out of the question.)

There's a variant of Murphy's Law that states "Clutter expands to fill the space available". The advantage of a small shop is that you have to clean regularly in order to get any work done at all. Thickness one soundboard and you're knee-deep in wood shavings.

Just out of curiosity. This is open for anyone. What would your ultimate one man shop setup look like? Room dimensions, layout, etc.

Michael:

Welcome to the forum. Sit back and kick your feet up and enjoy the company, we do.

Initially I wanted to have as big as shop as possible.Thinking the more room to move around the better. But seeing a lot of peoples workshop I think there is a balance one should strive for. My father-in-law's shop is only 8' wide but it is at least 25' long. Much of his floor space is taken up with power tools in storage, to be used when needed. For instance he has a 15" planer with a tarp covering it is in one corner, an old Craftsman 10" table saw up against the outside wall. In the oppisite corner is his metal lathe and wood lathe. Combine these with his workbench there is not much walking space but you would be surprised at what comes out of this shop.

Someone told me once that if the shop is to big you waste time carting your pieces to the next work station. To misquote Albert Eienstien:A workshop should be as big as needed and no bigger. I think it is more important to have a well organized shop than to have a "bigger" shop.

Right now , my dream set-up would be a workshop on ground level( not in a basement ) with real windows ,divided in two rooms : the dusty room , with power tools and the clean room with a drawing table , computer and chair high workbench for reed-making and similar precision work . And of course a wood storage somewere else.

We are setting up our shop in a horse barn. The ground floor (not counting the stalls) is 13' x 35' with a wood floor. The large power tools will go there. The loft is 15' x 35'. It will be divided in two, a finishing room and storage. If I had my druthers it would all be on the same level but divided up the same way.

Hi all, I've tried for years to convince my wife that a layer of dust on her car is the price she pays for parking it in my shop. (she calls it the garage) Anyway, I've been looking at some of the comericial air filters sold in tool catalogs. Any one have any experience with these things. I have about 1,000 sq. ft. most of them claim to handle that amount space in the $250 to $300 range.

Do you mean these square ( or rectangular ) things that are supposed to clean the air in the workshop ? Fact is : I have one and I do not know if it works <g>. Each time I clean the filters , they are absolutely full of dust ,and so are the tools on the shelves . Part of the problem is that my gizmo is so noisy that I wait until to late before I start it .When I was on holiday , I had installed a timer on it ( noon and 6 pm ) when the thing started , I left the place to eat , but since , it is not much help .I think that a real aspiration system on each of the big dust makers is the way to go , but I do not yet have any experience on the subject.

Rick,

I have made several filters. The easiest was with a HEPA? (3 micron) filter made for furnaces they are reusable after cleaning. I've found that 3 muffin fans used for electronic equipment provide enough air flow without deing noisy. The case is 1/4" hardboard on 1" x 1" frame. Easy, quickie, cheapy.

Small trick I discovered recently. After totally screwing up an oil finish I decided to redo a resonator guitar using spray lacquer. As I don't have a compressor this meant buying a few cans at the hardware store. The first spraying I did permeated the whole house. The next time I plugged in the industrial dehumidifier I have. If I let it run for about ten minutes before I start spraying, it condenses out most of the volatiles fairly quickly. I still wear a mask while spraying, but within a few minutes the smell in the spraying area is undetectable except for a faint odour coming off the instrument itself.

Check out this webpage on putting a "small, robust woodshop in a non-dedicated space such as a garage. When not in use, the entire shop is stored compactly."

This guy calls 20x20' small! I could build my dream workshop in that kind of floorspace and still leave room for the hot tub and the built-in bar. <G>

Seriously, the thing I hate most about limited space is the amount of time you waste moving your power tools back and forth. If I could leave my bandsaw, drill press, belt sander, router table, and scroll saw set up in one place I'd probably double my productivity. I could also set up a good permanent dust collecting system that would save me time cleaning.

Robert , you have given my an idea : since I always have to move my tools to bring them in the center of the room, more or less in front of the bench, I will install the shop vac more or less permanently under the bench ( near the lathe)and store the hose there.

When I bring the saw in the working position I will connect it to the shop-vac alreadt on location .Same for the router or sander.

Yes, we all have to <g> and bear it.

While on a futile search through Sears to replace a pair of gloves that got ripped off, I wandered into their tool department. Normally I wouldn't touch their stuff with a barge pole since IMHO it costs at least 50% more than it's worth, but they had a new product that might be worth buying. The idea is definitely worth stealing at any rate.

Picture a triangular prism with a threaded rod running down the centre, attached to a table. The three faces are about 24x18. Each face can have a different machine bolted on to it, which can be rotated in and out of position as necessary. Nowhere near big enough for your 22" bandsaw but you could easily mount a belt/disc sander, a grinder, and scroll saw, or leave one face blank as a work surface. Looks like a great idea for a small shop. Adding a lazy susan assembly to one or more faces would increase the versatility even more. If I get ambitious over the next few months I may try building one. The Sears version is mounted on a metal frame on wheels. No way it would fit into my shop, but it would work nicely in a garage. The price was only $150 Canadian which is not bad.

I need to start looking for a dust collection setup. Will a shop vac work to some extent?

Although it does look like he's hanging the tin man upside down from his ceiling.

The cyclone type filters strip out a LOT of dust and debris BEFORE anything gets to the fan so they tend to be quite efficient and a bit safer. (If a 1" square piece of pine hits the fans of you dust collector your neighbors will know 1) if you've had combat training and 2) if you think their yard has any safe cover). In any case because of this efficiency most of the dust ends up in steel trash can and very little dust goes into the bag. This makes it easier to dump it into the compost heap without redistributing it into your workshop. I'll find the copy I made of his plans and post the full magazine name and the month with that article.

Well I guess It's time to gloat a bit. My lovely wife has decided that she's sick and tired of me tracking sawdust footprints through the house. Her solution? I can build a workshop in the back yard and that way she won't have that layer of dust on everything in the garage. (Isn't she cool!? )

I looks like my shop will be tucked into the back corner of our (very large) yard. If I make it rectangular it will be 22'x14'. But the back corner of the yard is angled so I could make it 22'long with one 14' end and one 20' end (imagine a triangle tacked onto the long side of a rectangle) I can dig and frame up the foundation myself (I just did it for a jacuzzi last year) although I'll pay someone else to pour the concrete and wire it up. But I should be able to frame it myself.

Dang! I started out as a luthier, I wound up doing cabinetry and making rocking hourses, now I'm becoming a carpenter. When do I get to build guitars again? Oh well. My wife has this great habit. She buys me a nice tool and while I'm still glowing she'll ask "Do you think you could build a [kitchen cabinet, entertainment system, book cases, drafting table, rocking horse] with that? Of course, I'm so dumb struck by the gift that I always say "Yeah, Sure!"

Found it! The dust collector plans are from the November 1997 issue of Wood Magazine.

Robert-- I have one of the tables you talked about in #40. thay are great for the small shop I am thinking about adding another.But do your self a favor if you buy it,the thing comes "some assembly required" USE LOCK-TIGHT on every bolt. the viberation will shake it loose in a week.Using the vise on the drill press makes for a good work bench top. allso you can make other end boards for it and mount tons of stuff on them. the only down side other than haveing to clear it off befor you rotate it is you must have small(short) enough tools to clear the bottom supports in order to get a full 360 deg. rotation. unless you build your own then start with the tallest tool.

On another thing. I was so board yesterday that I cleaned my shop. Put away everything, cleaned the dust off the walls, moped the floor,I even vacumed the vac. Someone stop me befor I clean agin <g>. whats next mow the yard???

..."When I can no longer find any good tools or wood under the pile of junk." .... Then I start sorting the junk, and only move it in another location . When I look at pictures in magazine, they never have skis, tents or any sport equipment in the working area, no stacks or scrap wood ,kept " just in case " no shelves full of paint cans, "toaster-that-work only-on- one-side-kept-just-in-case-the-new-one-should-konk-out-completely",or patio chairs in the winter.

I'm going through workshop withdrawals right now. Does anyone have any first hand experience working out of a metal or wooden garden shed. I am not allowed anything larger than 10x12. I want a wooden one but the price is about $1100 in my area. I've seen metal sheds for about a third that. It's only temporary until I can buy a house but I may have to use it for up to two years.

Would I be better off to put my guitar building on hold and try to make something smaller like mandolins or violins?

Julian, as far as I know, I'm still the title holder in the small shop sweepstakes. As I said in an earlier posting to this discussion my work area in the basement is about 8' by 8' including the water heater. I still manage to build guitars in it. What I would worry about in a metal shed would be first, climate control, and second, making sure that my tools were still there when I came back in the morning. Everything else is trivial. With a 10 by 12 floor space I could start building double basses, although that's probably still a bit small for harpsichords. Let me know if you want any tips about how to pack everything in.

Julian,

I started my workshop in a 12'x16' wooden shed (mini-barn). I would recommend building one with at least 8 foot side walls. Mine has 4 ft side walls and I quickly discovered that there was no way to keep larger tools, or benches, close to the wall for increased floor space. Also, make sure that you use a fairly thick plywood for the floor. After insulating and paneling the side walls, I was able to heat it with a single electric space heater. Unfortunately, my ongoing battle with power tool aquisition syndrome has since forced me to move into my detached 24'x24' garage. I guess I need to learn how to efficiently utilize space. Anyone have a Bridgeport mill for sale? <G>

You will need ear plugs with a metal shed if you use power tools!!!

I'm sure that all conscientious luthiers already use hearing protection every time they switch on a machine. (Probably like all teenagers use birth control when they have sex. <G>) I keep my protective earphones within easy reach of the machines. Of course my shop is so small everything is within easy reach. Twenty years down the line I'd like to be able to hear what my instruments sound like.

Anyone out there have a link to a set of plans for a workbench that would be well-suited to building electric guitars and basses? The bench/table I can get at Home Depot is inexpensive, but too small. I'll gladly buy the lumber and hardware and build it myself; I just need some guidance. Besides, what better practice than building your own bench?

Thanks for all the input dudes. I guess 10x12 seems big to some but I have really gone the route of tool aquisition to a great degree. I also have the double problem that I need space for a full brass/woodwind repair area too. I just need to quit complaining and build SOMETHING. That will clear my head.

Kevin. My favorite workbench has always been a thick flat top with a 4" overhang. The only vise I have on it is a paternmakers vise (guitarmakers from Stew Mac). Any other clamping is done on various forms and such. A good heavy solid slab of wood is a joy to behold. I inherited a table at work (unfortunately I can't do any private work there, it's Uncle Sams shop)that is 3'x8'x2 1/2" of solid maple. I think it weighs well over 200lbs. Now I just need to make a decent base for it.

I'm with Julian on a thick, solid bench top. I always need to clamp things that aren't just at the edge of the bench -- I don't understand how people can like those benches that have heavy aprons and a thin center.

For those who need a really nifty workbench and want to build one for themself(and what self-respecting luthier wouldn't?) check out the plans offered for sale by Stewart-MacDonald. I built the rotating top workbench years ago using plywood and verticle grain spruce 2x4s. It's a beaut! When the edges get too buggered up, I just unbolt them and replace them with new wood. If any one's interested in the details of my modifications to these plans, let me know.

Kevin,

I have been thinking about buildling a new workbench for a week or so (which means I still have no idea what I will end up with). One item that I have considered is buying a lacquer finished maple workbench top slab from Lee Valley . They have two sizes, both of which are 24" x 60" (one is 1 3/4" thick for $185 + shipping, the other 2 3/4" thick for $245 + shipping). Now that ain't cheap, but if you want a thick maple top it is a good deal... First, consider it is dead flat. Second, consider the price of the maple (plus cut-offs), doing the big glue-up, and then the effort to sand the top flat (do not underestimate that--unless you have access to a wide-belt thickness sander-- $35 min charge near here)... as you can see, I'm trying to rationalize this myself.

I'd love to hear other workbench modifications luthier-types have come up with.

My first workbench rule is : If you are under 40 years old: working surface height is mesured from the ground,(for best use of hand-tools and bla-bla-bla) If over 40 : mesure the distance from your eyes to workbench surface <g>

Second rule : How many other uses will " contaminate " your workbench surface . I sometime repair my bicycles or lanwmower in my shop, so the bench surface is a masonite board just dropped in place in a pine edges , I just replace what is to worn or dirty from time to time . ( 24" deep X 8' large is conveniant )

Third rule : Too strong never breaks : Whatever base you have , is to be strong , heavy and braced ( triangulated) in all directions.( I used discarded roof truss to build my bench base )

Will the Wise be in another discussion?

I have a video called "Classical and Flamenco Guitarmaking with Benito Huipe" As you watch Benito work it's amazing how little a person needs. He is from the Paracho (sp) school of makers. He mentions that in Mexico almost all work is done in your lap. I think those guys could build a guitar with a knife, scraper, ball of twine, and a good assortment of rocks for clamps.

I have had four different "European-style" workbenches but I still prefer something plain. Check out "the Workbench Book". It has a couple of pretty cool guitar making setups. I also think the Stew-Mac workstation is a good idea (especially for solid body instruments and repairs). I have the plans but am too lazy to build one right now.

"The Workbench Book" is available through the MIMForum Bookstore.

Julian, sounds like the solution to your space problem is to get rid of a few tools. I'd be more than happy to take them off your hands. <G>

Seriously, though, the key to designing small shops is efficient use of VOLUME, not floor or bench space. I have every vertical surface covered with pegboard, and just about every cubic foot of space under the benches filled with shelves and drawers. Lutherie tends to spawn a multitude of small tools, jigs, and templates, which if left unorganized could clutter up Grand Central. Look at any unoccupied space and work out what could fit there.

My benches are all made with a framework of 2x4s screwed together and screwed to the ceiling joists and the floor. They do not move. The tops are 1" melamine covered particle board which was on special at Cashway. The goal at the time I built them was to do it as cheaply and quickly as possible. They're hardly shining examples of cabinetmaking, but they are solid and do the job just as well as fancy hardwood benches. The bench I do most of my handtool work on isn't covered but studded with 1/4-20 threaded inserts screwed just below the top. What these can hold down is limited only by the imagination and the availability of toggle clamps. I have hardboard taped to the other tops which gets replaced when it gets too chewed up. Easier on the tools if you slip or overcut. I also have a table covering which is a 2' by 4' piece of tileboard backed on one side with cork sheet. Turn it tile-side up for layout or greasy work, cork-side up for work on finished instruments.

Well Robert I do have an old putty knife I might be able to part with. On second thought I'll just send you everything and switch to infantry <G>.

I really appreciate your input here. The volume outlook is an easily overlooked thing I realize. I just got an illuminating vision of your threaded insert studded bench (do you keep the top covered most of the time or only use that bench for clamping stuff?).

I went looking for work sheds again yesterday and I think I will get a nice vinyl shed made by Royal. I think they are made in Canada. Looks real nice. The walls are honeycomb construction with an insulating airspace. Definitely the most friendly looking inside, which is where I intend to spend most of my time. Do you think I could live with a 8x10 or should I find some more money for the 10x12 model. It is A frame with an 8 foot peak the side walls are over 6'.

Here is what I have for major stuff. Does anyone have any good ideas on what to put where?

Shopsmith, 6" Grizzley Jointer, 6x42 Belt Sander, 16" Bandsaw, Small Sjorbergs workbench, Grizzley Dust Collection System (yea right!)

I have a 4x10 storage unit I can keep most of my materials in so I should be able to dedicate the shed to luthiery. I plan to do the instrument repair work in a 6x8 closet in the house.

After I get this setup then I'll seek input on how to get into sprayed finishes.

Does anyone have any good ideas on what to put where?
Put everything on mobile bases.

should I find some more money for the 10x12 model.
Bigger is better...

Bigger is better? And I thought that was just a guy thing, Deb. <G>

Julian, actually I was thinking more along the lines of a complete set of Lie-Nielsen planes. I already have a putty knife, but thanks for the offer.

The bench with the inserts is uncovered. I just have them screwed in far enough that they don't project. Depending on the wood you may have to plane the surface around the hole a bit afterward to level it. Buy a bunch of inserts and add them as necessary. Very useful little things to have around. I also have my woodworking vise mounted on that bench and a line of holes drilled for bench stops. If you want a pristine surface I'd suggest cutting a piece of MDF to fit your bench, and back it with cork on one side. Use whichever surface is convenient, and remove it whenever you want to screw things down.

I'll second Deb on mobile bases for the big stuff. I think "The Small Shop" in the Fine Woodworking series has a few designs for bases that only move when you want them to.

Robert--- If he uses the 6x8 for a repair SHOP he will take your title as smallest shop, this would put me in third place, by the way did Deb ever send you the prize for first place? I have not gotten the runner up prize yet.

I was going to give you my Ibex finger planes instead. Or perhaps my Swiss Made carving tools. Can you belive I picked up about 10 brand new Pfeil carving chisels in the original packaging for about $6 apiece at a flea market in Bremen Germany? I think a lot of them are over $30 each in the Woodcraft catalog. I also got a great deal on the finger planes. I bought them from the manufacturer at half off at the Frankfurt Musikmesse. I do miss the flea markets in Germany. Especially if you go up north. There seems to be a lot of former East-Bloc citizens selling their wares. I've gotten machinists tools, old knives and scrapers. All of my oboe reed knives are made out of antique straight razors. I even have a nice double end buffing shaft I picked up for ten bucks or so. It's just waiting for a motor and a stand. Ahh, but I digress.

I think I'll get a solid core door and put the inserts in. I'll probably end up canabilizing the inserts for bolt on necks someday if I know me. I went out looking for sheds again. I think I am swinging towards a normal wood one again. It's tough to attach stuff to the walls of a vinyl shed quite as easily as a wood one.

I don't think it would be fair to have the small shop award for the 6x8 space. I have too much stuff in too many spaces to qualify. Now if I can just put ALL of it in there then I would have something.

Paul, now that you mention it, Deb still hasn't sent me my smallest workshop prize. What with all the good work she's doing here, it probably slipped her mind.

Julian, doors make good tabletops if you can get them cheap enough. Buy yourself a hundred or so inserts. Probably cost you as much as it does to buy ten. I guarantee you'll use them all sooner or later.

I have one 4'x6' space in the garage, another 4'x4' in the storage shed, drawing board in one room, and the kitchen table when (I think) I can get away with it. I also depend on the larger tools of family and friends over a 50 mile radius - generally in exchange for "grunt work". (If you hafta count the space between modules I may qualify for the largest.) I always wanted to consolidate as much as I could, and being a quasi-nomad, didn't want to sink a lot of time, cash,etc into a structure I might have to leave behind.

You-all with your small shops got me wondering if I could set up in a retired schoolbus. Hmnm- maybe <g> maybe not.....

Roy, I like it! It would be even better if the bus actually runs.

I actually looked through my Fine Woodworking books and found the small shops articles. Amazing what you find when you just open your eyes. I really liked the wood shop set up in a mobile home. Maybe when I buy a house I may consider using an old mobile home as a space. I've know a couple of guys who have instrument repair shops set up in their mobile home. That way they can service customers in remote areas.

I remeasured my closet repair shop. It's 5x5 1/2 (and the door opens INWARD...AAARRGH).

I'm willing to concede defeat when it comes to shop size, unless Deb comes up with something that makes it worth my while to fight for the title. <G>

Robert:

I think you had better concede! If you hold your breath any longer for the prize we may have to call the paramedics ;-).

Darn, I guess Christmas is over after all, except for Ukranians.

I've tried a Kerosine heater in my shop but in the 0 Degrees Fahrenheit weather it only rises 15 degrees in the shop. Any suggestions for better heating?

How about insulating?

Try one of those propane jet furnaces. They look kind of like afterburners, but I think they put out 100,000 BTUs or something like that. I've seen them in warehouses around the loading docks, but I haven't actually felt one in action.

Those put out a lot of heat if you can stand the noise.

I'm going to add insulation to the ceiling. I've left one ceiling panel open in order to do this.

Try one of those propane jet furnaces.

Try one of those propane jet furnaces.

Be careful out there.

Greg, I hope you haven't already found this out the hard way, but carbon monoxide is more or less the same density as air. It will disperse evenly through the room, not collect at the bottom, especially if there is any air circulation, which there will be with a heat source going. Play it safe and buy yourself a CO monitor from the hardware store. Then all you have to worry about is the wood dust and paint fumes causing an explosion.

I have a small propane "jet engine" heater. It's less than 2' long. You have to plug it in to 110V AC. It will run about 20 hours on a 40 pound tank. Unfortunately it doesn't have a thermostat. They sell for a bit less than $150

I went ahead and bought the 8x10 vinyl shed. I unloaded it in the dark and cold last night only to have all the parts covered with 3" of snow this morning. Hopefully I can build it in the next week. Ii'll let you know how crowded it really is when i get everything in it. One of the first things will be to put pegboard on all of the usable spaces. I also think I will go with the solid core door and inserts. My dad had one of those torpedo shaped heaters for his garage when I was a kid. Man did it put out some heat! I think they are a bit noisy and probably overkill for a small shop. But heck as we say in the Army "why kill when you can overkill?"

I bought the heater for my shop at the place I buy propane from. The heater was one year old and is the type that is upright and is vented with a chimney. Air is forced over the element with a fan; this was in a mobile home at one time and the fan was out of balance, which drove the owners crazy. Any way it was an easy fix and only cost $150 dollars so you might check around at places that sell propane or with people who install heaters for something used. The nice thing about this type of heater besides the BTU’s is the small footprint app.10"X12”.

Oh, I thought I was so slick! I didn't buy the floor kit because they wanted $170 for it. Heck it's an 8x10 shed. I only have a station wagon and didn't want to transport full sheets of plywood so...I just bought 10 2'x4' sheets and 11 8' long pressure treated 2x4s. The whole thing just sits on my patio so I didn't need 4x4s. Anyway, I screwed the whole floor together. It looks really good, nice and solid. ONE PROBLEM. The shed is actually 8' 1 3/4" deep. I guess it helps to read the directions first. I knew that it wasn't exactly 8x10 but since when do companies make anything larger than they say? I'm sure I'll figure out a good way to extend the base. It just delays my progress for now. Live and learn.

I guess next week I'll be seeking advice on heat too.

Julian, I hate to break this to you, but 2x4s don't actually measure two inches by four inches either. <G> Come to think of it, one should fill that 1 3/4" gap nicely.

Robert, what do you mean they don't REALLY measure 2"x4"? (slap my forehead) So THAT's been the problem all these years!<G>. Your right Paul, I was feeling rather Manly. I had my 50' tape measusre out (the Intimidator). I was sure the base was square. I usually put things together first, then I read the instructions to see if I did it right and to confirm my superiority. Ran into the same thing last night assembling a bed for my daughter hmmmm, maybe there is a message here somewhere? Come rain or shine (but not snow), I'm going to celebrate MLK day by getting that accursed shed operational.

To those people limited to a 10' x 12' space, I was going to recommend a 10 x 12 A-frame structure. The walls are almost straight, and you get a little loft overhead to store your wood. I forget what the wall angle usually is, but a 10 x 12 can actually get pretty tall. If your putting the building on your patio, a tall shed can interfere with the view from your house.

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