Newbie to Lutherie: start with kit, or build from scratch?

Edward Ashley - 06:16pm Jul 7, 1998

I want to build an instrument. What I really want to build is a mandolin (carved top, A shape, not sure about F-holes vs oval hole). I have Roger Siminoffs book, and thought to replicate the treble side point on the bass side, avoiding the scroll complexities, coming up with something that looks like the Gibson two point that Jethro used to play. However, I have been advised that I would be better off to start with a guitar kit (or even a dulcimer kit, even tho I do not want a dulcimer), and to use mahogany rather than rosewood if I buy a Martin kit. Am I setting my sights too high as a rank beginner if I ignore this advice?

Am I setting my sights too high as a rank beginner if I ignore this advice?
Nope. I myself advise people away from kits -- too often the woods are of an inferior quality, and you're just as likely to get into trouble with a kit as you are building from scratch, learn less, and be even less prepared to get yourself *out* of trouble if you do blunder. Set your sites high, be prepared to make mistakes, ruin things, and enjoy the work as you go. Your first instrument is unlikely to be a masterpiece, but so what?

If there are adult ed woodworking courses offered near you, consider taking one.

Totaly agree with Deb. I have had many kits given to me since the sixtys<g> never built one of them . Always work from scratch, have control that way. Can make upscale or downscale choice of ready available materials actually youn have to make all the decisions the most important phase. Have no fear the learning process will be remarkeable and you will enjoy all this important stuff.

My only kit instrument was a Christmas gift . It was a european kit and the wood was warped by the time I opened the box. A friend with a lot of experience and many power tools built it for me so I could show it at the next Christmas .Many parts had to be copied .

Some kits are better than others ,if you can check if the wood is not warped before buying it could be interesting , but the price is still an important factor.

You can have some parts bandsawed or planed in a shop if you do not own the proper power tools .

I think a lot of it has to do with how much woodworking experiance you have and also with what tools you have at you disposal. As most of you know, there is compound bandsawing, routing, side bending and quite a bit of hand work involved in making an instrument. I think if I were starting over, I would start with a quality kit.

Start from scratch - the only kit I ever built was the proverbial 'first dulcimer", everything else - flattop and archtop guitars, carved and flattop mandolins, dulcimers, etc. - has been from scratch... and my woodworking skills were non-existent - and nearly so with my tools. I built several dulcimers with only a hand drill and a saber saw - and a lot of elbow grease. If I can do it - so can you.

As a fledgling luthier I'd like to hear some opinions about the grade or quality of the wood in a first instrument. I've heard arguments about starting with AAA woods so one won't be disappointed with the end result (LMI's stance), as well as starting with 2nd grade woods so inept hands don't waste some precious tonewoods. I didn't have the $$$ for a set of Brazilian rosewood and Master grade European spruce anyway,<G> so I decided to begin with something a little different: 1st grade Claro walnut and a AAA Redwood top. It flies in the face of tradition, but I didn't want to build a D28 clone. I was just excited to create something unique and playable without using a kit.

Maybe this is just cover-up for being miserly, but I like to use cheap wood , so if the instrument sounds good I get all the glory and if it sounds bad ,I have a good excuse <g>

Both Taylor and Bennedetto have made a point of making instruments from "inferior" wood. Bennedetto made an archtop out of knotty pine and Taylor out of pallets for the back and sides and resawn two by four for the top. I think it was a 5 piece top or something. Both instruments are purported to have exellent tone.I have made archtops out of Cherry for neck, backs and sides with good results.

I know one thing. If you buy a set of bookmatched sides in any species and you fracture or break one while bending, your out of luck. I had good luck with my first bending experiance but I also put out $125 bucks for an iron and had plenty of practice sides. I think telling someone to scratch build their first instrument is irresponsible. At least give them some information. 1/4 sawn vs flatsawn, grain direction, runout ,etc. Using a drill and a sabersaw don't cut it when your fitting neck dovetails and cutting fret slots. Go with a kit. At least it will give you an idea of what your getting yourself into. $$$$$

Kits would be fine if 1) they all came with decent instructions, and 2) were well made. The stew-mac banjo kit some friends asked me to assemble for them was an absolute disaster. Parts didn't mate; the instructions were worthless; several difficult operations had been left for the unsuspecting buyer to complete (no problem for me, impossible for them); and the wood was so green that, by the time the finish had cured, the pre-drilled holes for the machines had shrunk to the point where they were too small and had to be re-drilled, and the neck had back-bowed because the maple neck was more green than the ebony fretboard and shrank more. So I don't think telling people to build from scratch is irresponsible -- quite the opposite. And if they have questions they can always ask us -- we'll be here.

That's great Deb, really. But will you be there when he has to shell out monies for all the tools and supplies he'll need for building a Guitar or Banjo? I have over $2000 bucks worth of luthier tools in my shop and without a basic knowledge of woodworking they would all be worthless. I think books are great, helpfull. How in the world can you explain how to blank out a neck in words. It's impossible. Not to mention cutting a multi level heel cut on a Mastertone Banjo neck. These parts can be bought, First Quality Banjo for one and many other companies that deal in cutting neck blanks as well as my friend Brian England who cut's MOP inlays on his CNC far cheaper than you can buy the shell blanks for. I'm not trying to turn this fella off to scratch building but I do want him to know the differance between a spiral downcutter and a fretsaw.

You don't need much in the way of tools to get the job done -- just ask Henry, one of our staff members, how much he's done with an absolute minimum of tools, including his hurdy-gurdy. No need to know the difference between a spiral downcutter and a fretsaw. I don't know what a spiral downcutter is. If he can tell the difference between a handsaw and a guitar, that's enough <g>.

There were instruments before the invention of power tools. There is no need to invest big bucks before building an instrument. I didn't, many people here haven't. I feel it's best to get a bit of experience first so you have a better idea what tools you *really* need. Tools don't teach you anything, a kit won't teach you much. Mistakes teach best, other builders next best.

I think there is only one way to compare apples and oranges ,it is the price <g>

It took me approx. 500 hours to make a hurdy-gurdy with less than 50 $ Can. of wood : it would be impossible to sell it at a decent price , but it was a hobby, I made a lot of mistakes but I had fun .When faced with the problem of buying 5 cello tuning pegs at 8 $ each I decided to build a lathe myself. Obviously I can not make a living that way . To make the sound board , we resawed the spruce by hand and hand planed the boards , 3 hours to do what is done in a few minutes in a factory .

Part of the project was to re-discover some old-fashion techniques, for some parts we used a 8 1/4" table saw , not the safest tool to use .If I was to do it againI would take my wood to a shop equipped with a bandsaw and a planer .

Now , a HG is a very traditionnal instrument, It would be very different to try to make a copy of some modern instruments made with modern materials or intricate joinery techniques ( like your banjo )

Modern power tools are not only labor saving devices, they also save a lot of wood .

BTW, Deb, the difference berween a spiral downcutter and a fretsaw is around 12$ , but you need a power router to use the cutter<g>

If I could add my two dollars worth (allowing for inflation and the weak Canadian dollar). The choice of kit vs. scratch building comes down to you final goal, whether you want to build an instrument or want to learn to build instruments. You learn infinitely more by working the wood from as raw a state as possible, although cutting down your own trees is probably carrying it a bit too far.

Personally if I were starting over again my first priority would be to invest in high quality hand tools rather than a kit. Power tools make the process considerably less burdensome but they are not absolutely necessary nor are they sufficient to do high quality work.

Before I even considered buying a single piece of wood I would read every book about building instruments I could lay my hands on, regardless of what kind of instrument I was trying to build. Unless I was an experienced cabinetmaker I would also read every available book on general woodworking. These days there's no excuse for ignorance.

Go slowly, think about what you are doing, and if you're not sure ask. Above all have fun.

Hi everyone! I agree with those of you who think it's more important to build from scratch, and gain some valuable experience along the way. That is the course I have chosen and so far I'm having lots of fun learning from my mistakes and not spending a fortune. I built a frettless bass (5 string) a few years back with materials purchesed at local hardwood supliers. It's got a walnut back and top w/ a alder body core that is hollow, with a 5 piece neck of walnut, mahogany and maple. I used black Gotoh machines and a EMG piezo. The finished product has given me hours of joy and I only spent around $300. to build it. I recently helped my 18 year old son Jamie build a 5 string frettless acoustic for his senior project. We used the bowl from an old Applause (cheap Ovation) for the back, and we used a beautiful piece of old groth redwood that I found a few years back in an old shed. the neck was made with some black acacia from a local landscape salvage tree, and we used a beautiful piece of bocote for the f. board and bridge. A set of $35. tuners and a $20. set of strings later and we have great bass for under $100. If you are interested in seeing it point your browser to, www.frets.com/NCAL/NCALMeetings/698Meet/698MeetViews/kevin.JPG . While your there check some of the other great instruments pictured, none from kits either. The most important thing is to build. If you don't have the skills or the tools who cares, fake it. at least this way you'll find out if you really want to keep building. Best wishes to all, Kevin D. Davis

I am coming at this from a different direction. I started building instruments for my wife & son in law from no previous interest or knowledge in music other than listening to recordings. I have extensive wood & metal working experience & a very well equipped shop. Mostly we have been making renaissance and earlier pieces because the construction techniques are simpler & the instruments easier to play. So far with the help of the MIMF and about six books we have finished about a dozen pieces including a fife, drums, kalimbas, maracas, a Marimba and a dulcimer. Each piece teaches us something in both theory and technique. I figure it will be at least 6 months before we are ready to attempt an achoust guitar or mandolin.

Hello All,

As a newbie who recently finished his 1st guitar, I think my vote is with the 'go scratch' crowd. Just gathering all the parts needed for a musical instrument is an educational experience. ;)

I did have woodworking experience and a basic home woodshop available and have built a couple of dulcimer kits. At the risk of telling you more than you want to know, my project was a compromise: I built the guitar body from scratch and bought a second CNC neck and pre slotted fingerboard from Martin's Guitar Connection. By shopping, using martin seconds and using other than 1st grade material the project cost me about $230 (or about $200 if I had not sprung for a 'Tor-tis' pickguard). I knew I could save a coupla hundred over a kit and rationalized that I could then invest the difference in lutherie tools or machines or jigs (of course I probably spent 4 or 5 times that amount - but who is counting :) ). I ended up with a good guitar and got close to a great guitar!

Anyway, I have some pictures and a few more building experience details available on a web page, if you are interested, at: http://members.aol.com/dodsonjohn/guitar.htm

John

I am interested in constructing one of the MARTIN kits. I am not entering this with the objective of becoming a luthier, but rather in the production of a single quality instrument. Any feedback concerning experience with the Martin kits would be helpfull. I have experience in production of black powder rifles and pistols, so I don't believe that the skills required will be a problem.

Many of you have seen my Martin Kit woes posted here already, but since I'm a relatively inexperienced woodworker, I can tell you I would never even consider building a guitar from scratch. Building one for the first time from a kit is hard enough, let alone doing it from scratch. Without question, a kit makes building a guitar approachable for the first-time builder. On the other hand, I doubt that my second guitar (if ever there is one) will be from a kit. Even if you are trying to learn as much as possible, you are more likely to succeed by taking small steps first.

The price of kits from Martin seems to be similar to what most of you are spending on first time guitars from scratch, and you can start out with excellent quality wood.

Carl, a word of warning-the Martin kit comes with a blueprint which, according to the Martin people, is "not supposed to be the same as your kit." It also comes with an instruction manual which has the wrong area code in it, and again according to the Martin people is "most useful as a coaster for your coffee cup."

On the other hand, I've had a blast just figuring out what to do next. Even if I don't get a great guitar, I've had a great experience.

FM2CW: Years ago I used to teach a class in building musical instruments for college kids. We had only my hand tools, a drill, and a sabre saw. If I did it again now, I could tell the first day who would wind up with a nice instrument and who would wreck my tools. My observation was that, while experience helps, care and attention to detail (andnot being in a rush) matter more than tools, materials, or even woodworking knowledge. The best instruments (dulcimers) were built from scratch--by girls with NO prior woodworking experience. The guy that claimed to know all about tools thought you could chisel out a pegbox by using my sabre saw as a jackhammer, after being told no one was to touch the power tools without me being present. So: the less you know you know and the more you want it, the better the results regardless of tools, kits, or scratchbuilding. One thing I would say about kits: don't assume that any of the work is done for you. Jed

First of all friends, I am not saying kit's are the way to go. I have never built one! I teach professional woodworking. I do think however that learning from a "QUALITY" kit will give a basic knowledge of stringed instrument building. My Brother Bruce Kunkel started with a Stew Mac F5 mandolin kit in the mid 70's and is now head luthier for the Gibson Custom Shop in Nashville TNN. The kit gave him the ground work to figure out the in's and out's of Mandolin building. Bruce's Guitar's and Banjo's are now on permanent display in the Smithsonian Institute in DC as well as in the home's of Bill Monroe, Chet Atkins, Earl Scruggs, Brooks and Dunn, etc... My first model airplane was a Guillow's kit. I now build 1/4 scale remote controlled WW1 aircraft from scratch. I think you may want to start with a kit!

As I said, my Stew-Mac kit experience was disasterous. A problem for beginners is that they can't necessarily tell what's a good quality kit and what's a POS. Stew-Mac may have sold quality kits in the mid-70s but I sure wouldn't recommend them now. But I agree that, *IF* you can find a good kit, and only want to make one instrument, a kit might save you some time and trouble.

Sounds like Carl's black powder experience could come in handy... if the darn guitar doesn't come out right he can just shoot the darned thing! I for one think that a decent kit, whether dulcimer, guitar, or whatever is a good way to start out. Just getting all of the parts from one source at the same time is a considerable help. Figuring out inexpensive ways to clamp and glue the parts together is a big enough challenge the first time for most of us. Cutting out tops and sides and carving a neck is a lot more than I think I'd like to tackle the first time out.

also to think about is how intrepid is the maker i am starting with cheap wood and rdaical ideas i'm good enough with tools to know nothing happens the same way twice..evermost of my work ha sbeen in steel and brass i'm not using a kit because if I screw upthen i screwed up and i get a good laugh and i may even know what not to do next time I have played and studied stringed instruments for 18 years making knives for most of it i learned that by the seat of my pants I personally work well that wayif my wife were to build I would suggest a kit to her everything there laid out she would be crushed if her ideas didn't work out I have no pride till it works that's my call

My wife recently purchased a "kit" for me for an acoustic flattop bass. I say "kit" but it really was a box of raw materials. As I sat at my 30th birthday party opening the box I was very scared at what I saw, it just looked like a lot of work. Over the past two months I have been gathering books and information, checking out web sites etc. and it does not look so intimidating. I'm really looking forward to learning. The only thing that has me nervous is the side bending.

Hi All I've been away for a while. To build form kit or scratch is kind of a favorate subject for me. I have started a number of people in harp building, some started from a kit and others from scratch. My openion is that it does not matter one way or the other. What is important is that you start from a good high quality kit, or form good high quality plans. The important part is that someone else has already worked out the problems with the particular design and they are willing to tell you how to build the thing. After all, the first instrument will only teach you what you need to build the second and then only if you take the time to learn from the first experience. If you do not have some of the necessary tools to build from scratch, then the kit is probably the way to go. Remember though that "all kits are not created equal." If a kit is assembled using poor grades of materials, and the work done for you is not up to par, then your results may not be any better.

If at all possable, I would prefer to start a newbie out with good quality plans only because in my experience good plans are easier to come by than good kits. The problem is that if you are completely new to woodworking you may not have the knowledge to determine the merits of one kit versis another. This forum undoubtly a good place to get such information. A good assimbly and instruction manual is essential to your success for both kits and scratch plans. Don't buy either without enough instructions to complete your project on your own. If the instructions are up to par, then you can ask right questions of the experts and get the answer you need. I have seen many kits that an expert would have trouble with, and I have seen many plans that a raw beginner would have NO trouble. I am sure that most of the experts on the forum will have definate openions about the plans you should look at, but more important ask other beginners who have built from the kit or plan you choose. Your experiences will probably merror theirs.

Last and probably the most important, "DO NOT HANDICAP YOURSELF BY PLACING A TIME LIMIT ON YOURSELF". The project is going to take as long as it takes. Don't try too many short cuts for your first instrument. For a beginner, short cuts usually translate into mystakes.

Good hunting

Dale

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